Dubois, Cedeno, Murton....who's next?

[Fanatic3332000]

The Cubs are just wasting their minor league system.....whether its Dusty Baker's fault idk....Dubois was the MVP last season in Triple A, was he ever given a legitimate chance , day in and day out, he and hollandsworth split outfielding douties, and then he was sent packing for really Matt Lawton.....Cedeno showed he is a very good defender and a mediocre hitter, but he still i dont believe was given a chance because perez was used at ss though he was going through a slump at the time, and i agree that he needs a little more time in minors and shouldnt just sit behind nomar, hopefully he can be the future ss of the cubs, or id even try him at 2b, and sign nomar to play short, or vice versa......Murton, the guy hits over .300 after being called up from Double A, and he is the one who is sent down?, Patterson once again is batting .231 and still cant score a runner from third with 1 out (as seen tonight), i believe murton might not be faster then patterson, but murton is not a liability, has an okay arm, and has shown he can hit any good lefty pitcher in the league....anyway im tired of seeing our prospects fail time and time again, you look down the starting lineup and how many guys actually came from farm system....

[CubfaninCA]

So who plays cf then?? The Cub defense is pretty bad. At least CPatt can defend.

[Derwood]

And the mighty Dubois was already demoted by Cleveland, so he seems to be a classic AAAA player

[Outshined_One]

And the mighty Dubois was already demoted by Cleveland, so he seems to be a classic AAAA player

 

Yes, after less than 250 career ML ABs, it is clearly time to give up on any future he might have.

[katway]

Dubois may or may not be a AAAA player. But, I think the team made the right estimation that he is better served by being in the AL where his defense is not as much of an issue. So, I give dusty a pass on this one since it may have been square peg for round hole.

 

With respect to Murton and Cedeno, I think Dusty has done an awful job, Both players have promise, yet we still have trouble analyzing their potential to be everyday players because they never played everyday for even a short stretch even though they couldn't do any worse that the journeyman veterans. Baker really dropped the ball and aside for his poor lineups, this would be my second biggest reason for terminating him at the end of the year.

[SpanishFortCub]

Please don't use Dubois as an example in this argument. It ruins the argument. As for Murton, he's got to develop some power. Period. His lack of pop really hurts him since he can't play CF.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Going by Rate and RAA, Dubois is as good if not a better fielder than Hollandsworth, only slightly below average. True story. Edited August 21, 2005 by Transmogrified Tiger

[CUBZ99]

Going by Rate and RAR, Dubois is as good if not a better fielder than Hollandsworth, only slightly below average. True story.

 

That is not saying much. Hollandsworth is clearly not an everday player. Dusty gave Dubois a better chance at earning a job, than both Cedeno and Murton. He also had a chance in Cleveland to grab an everyday spot as DH, he just hasn't taken advantage of his opportunities.

[iliveforthis]

Going by Rate and RAR, Dubois is as good if not a better fielder than Hollandsworth, only slightly below average. True story.

 

I think this is where statistics can mislead. I personally think that Dubois is a much worse fielder than almost anyone I've seen in left. He is at the Manny Ramirez level as far as I'm concerned. I love the kid and I hope that he does well, but I'll never stick up for his defense.

[Backtobanks]

Please don't use Dubois as an example in this argument. It ruins the argument. As for Murton, he's got to develop some power. Period. His lack of pop really hurts him since he can't play CF.

 

 

I think he will develop some power (20 HR), but why does he have to hit for power. Ichiro plays a corner OF, Tony Gwynn didn't have power, and Pete Rose played corner OF without power. When a team has a corner OF without much power, it needs to get power from non-traditional positions (2B, SS, CF, or C). Players like Arod at SS, Sandberg or Kent at 2B, Griffey, Mays, or Mantle in CF, and Piazza (in his prime) at C allow you to have corner OF without much power.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Going by Rate and RAR, Dubois is as good if not a better fielder than Hollandsworth, only slightly below average. True story.

 

I think this is where statistics can mislead. I personally think that Dubois is a much worse fielder than almost anyone I've seen in left. He is at the Manny Ramirez level as far as I'm concerned. I love the kid and I hope that he does well, but I'll never stick up for his defense.

 

That may be true, but IMO someone's eyes/perceptions are much more likely to deceive them than a statistic.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

Please don't use Dubois as an example in this argument. It ruins the argument. As for Murton, he's got to develop some power. Period. His lack of pop really hurts him since he can't play CF.

 

 

I think he will develop some power (20 HR), but why does he have to hit for power. Ichiro plays a corner OF, Tony Gwynn didn't have power, and Pete Rose played corner OF without power. When a team has a corner OF without much power, it needs to get power from non-traditional positions (2B, SS, CF, or C). Players like Arod at SS, Sandberg or Kent at 2B, Griffey, Mays, or Mantle in CF, and Piazza (in his prime) at C allow you to have corner OF without much power.

 

Along those same lines, who says Murton won't develop into a power threat, or at the very least a solid SLG threat ? Sandberg hit just 25 HR in 1738 minor league AB and 15 in his first 1300 major league AB. Those numbers were all posted before age 25; then the power numbers and high OBP entered into his game.

 

If the Cubs stick Murton in LF for 500+ AB next year, he will net them 30 doubles and 15 HR.

[Outshined_One]

Going by Rate and RAR, Dubois is as good if not a better fielder than Hollandsworth, only slightly below average. True story.

 

That is not saying much. Hollandsworth is clearly not an everday player. Dusty gave Dubois a better chance at earning a job, than both Cedeno and Murton. He also had a chance in Cleveland to grab an everyday spot as DH, he just hasn't taken advantage of his opportunities.

 

I thought Cleveland's DH job was Travis Hafner's and that some injuries had caused him to miss time?

 

As much as I like Dubois, he's not as good as Hafner offensively speaking.

[biittner77]

It almost sounds as though Murton is the player that the Cubs wanted Patterson to be. So now the plan is to have Murton try to become more like Patterson and Patterson to continue trying to be more like Murton.

Brilliant.

 

Actually, like a lot of what Baker says it can be taken in many different ways depending on how you feel about Baker. Considering that Murton has room to grow into his body he could develop more power. Baker was probably alluding to that.

[ltb]

He also had a chance in Cleveland to grab an everyday spot as DH, he just hasn't taken advantage of his opportunities.

 

yeah, they're going to let dubois take that "hafner" guy's spot...he sucks anyway, right?

 

:roll:

[abuck1220]

It almost sounds as though Murton is the player that the Cubs wanted Patterson to be. So now the plan is to have Murton try to become more like Patterson and Patterson to continue trying to be more like Murton.

Brilliant.

 

 

exactly. patterson was sent down, in part, because he was trying to hit too many homers, striking out too much, not walking enough, not going the other way, etc. murton doesn't do any of those things, and he was sent down. in fact, they even came out and said that he needed to hit for more power.

[CUBZ99]

He also had a chance in Cleveland to grab an everyday spot as DH, he just hasn't taken advantage of his opportunities.

 

yeah, they're going to let dubois take that "hafner" guy's spot...he sucks anyway, right?

 

:roll:

 

Hafner was off the DL when Dubois was traded? #-o

[Transmogrified Tiger]

He also had a chance in Cleveland to grab an everyday spot as DH, he just hasn't taken advantage of his opportunities.

 

yeah, they're going to let dubois take that "hafner" guy's spot...he sucks anyway, right?

 

:roll:

 

Hafner was off the DL when Dubois was traded? #-o

 

I'm not sure if he was on the DL, but the deal coincided in some fashion with Hafner's concussion. Hafner didn't play for close to a week before being put on the DL.

[NewUserName]

This inability to develop young players isnt new for the Cubs. This has been going on my entire lifetime. They rarely make commitments to young players. The only young position player that they have made any kind of commitment to in the last 10 years is Patterson. I cant even think of another rookie position player who was given a months worth of starts let alone a whole season. This isnt Dusty this is the Cubs organization.

 

I think if Dubois was just given the start in LF from day one he would have had some ups and downs but we would be doing just about as good with him as anyone else that the Cubs have put out there(except Murton) and by next year he would probably be a good everyday player. No we give him 3 weeks he does all right and we look at his weaknessess(feilding?,KOs) instead of playing up his positives.(he may still have the 3rd highest SLG on the team)

 

If Cedeno would have been given a chance he surely could have at least gives us what Perez has and would cetainly would be better for next year.

 

And Murton has been our most productive OF this year(actually Dubois is probably 2nd) and what does management and some fans do, focus on his negitives(Power) instead of just saying that he is our best OF and letting him play.

 

This is part of what they have done to Patterson except they dont really have any other options in CF so they have had to live with it. Patterson is always going to be a low OBP, lot of KOS with decent power and a solid CF who should never bat higher than 6th in the order. That doesnt change the fact that he does contribute to the team though if used properly. The Cubs on the other hand are trying to make him what he is not and making the situation worse.

 

one last thing about Dubois, at least he is sitting behind young more productive players in Cleveland not behind unproductive players in their 30s who somehow give us a better chance of winning(of course looking at our winning percentage shoots that stupid arguement away. Also the last I seen we were about 5 games above 500 in games Dubois started)

[erik316wttn]

Please don't use Dubois as an example in this argument. It ruins the argument. As for Murton, he's got to develop some power. Period. His lack of pop really hurts him since he can't play CF.

 

Did Mark Grace's lack of power at a "power position" hurt us when he was in the lineup?

 

I'd gladly take a guy who hits .300 with 15 homers in this lineup any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

I don't care about his lack of power. Don't screw with his swing to where he'll hit 30 homers a year but then you sacrifice 30 points on his BA. He's just fine the way he is.... a good 2-hole hitter. We can make up the power other places.

 

And even if we don't, would anyone here really be sad to see the Cubs lineup not live and die by the home run anymore?

Edited August 21, 2005 by erik316wttn

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Again, power doesn't equal home runs. Murton may or may not hit with enough power to be a successful corner outfielder. However, the fact remains that he was the most productive outfielder we had, so he should have been playing everyday, not sent down.

[erik316wttn]

Again, power doesn't equal home runs. Murton may or may not hit with enough power to be a successful corner outfielder. However, the fact remains that he was the most productive outfielder we had, so he should have been playing everyday, not sent down.

 

If they just want him to hit more doubles and split more gaps, ok, I'm totally 100% ok with that. But I don't care if he doesn't hit a lot of home runs.

 

And Dusty is a fool for not playing him. Well, he's a fool anyway, but this just amplifies it.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm going to call any rookie called up from Iowa a Dust Bunny because that's all they do is collect dust.

[Outshined_One]

I'm going to call any rookie called up from Iowa a Dust Bunny because that's all they do is collect dust.

 

My nickname for Murton was "Dusty's Red-Headed Step Child".

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm going to call any rookie called up from Iowa a Dust Bunny because that's all they do is collect dust.

 

My nickname for Murton was "Dusty's Red-Headed Step Child".

 

:D The things we have to do to keep a sense of humor about this.