Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...

 

And for some reason, he seems to think that ERA is the only thing that Clemens is good at.

[imb]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...

 

WHAT IS THAT, SOME KIND OF MONEYBALL STATISTIC?

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

A little off topic, but IMB, are you giving up hope on the five guys in your sig already? I saw that and started cracking up.

[imb]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and assume that we won't sign them. It will make it less painful later on.

[K-Town]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...

 

So Chad Cordero is your man?

 

And I thought it was Roger Clemens.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

So Chad Cordero is your man?

 

And I thought it was Roger Clemens.

 

Apples and oranges man. Why don't you just throw Mark Grace into the mix then. He pitched before.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...

 

So Chad Cordero is your man?

 

And I thought it was Roger Clemens.

 

To save everyone some time.

 

One of us: No, Clemens has been a good pitcher for many more innings than Cordero.

 

K-Town: Then Carpenter should be better because of his extra IP.

 

One of us: No, even with Carpenter's advantage in IP, Clemens still comes ahead in cumulative statistics such as VORP or Win Shares.

 

At this point K-Town will either go into some bizarre situation to try and denounce Clemens, or he'll go with the wins/team success route, ignoring the previous point.

 

There, now we don't have to have 3 more pages of nonsense.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

To save everyone some time.

 

One of us: No, Clemens has been a good pitcher for many more innings than Cordero.

 

K-Town: Then Carpenter should be better because of his extra IP.

 

One of us: No, even with Carpenter's advantage in IP, Clemens still comes ahead in cumulative statistics such as VORP or Win Shares.

 

At this point K-Town will either go into some bizarre situation to try and denounce Clemens, or he'll go with the wins/team success route, ignoring the previous point.

 

There, now we don't have to have 3 more pages of nonsense.

 

=D> =D> =D>

[wolf stansson]

A little off topic, but IMB, are you giving up hope on the five guys in your sig already? I saw that and started cracking up.

That is hilarious. JT is finally going to succumb to one of the many vd's he has aquired. Penicillin is no longer effective for him. That's what happens when you are infected dozens of times and they grow a tolerance for conventional medication.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer.

 

 

It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...

 

So Chad Cordero is your man?

 

And I thought it was Roger Clemens.

 

To save everyone some time.

 

One of us: No, Clemens has been a good pitcher for many more innings than Cordero.

 

K-Town: Then Carpenter should be better because of his extra IP.

 

One of us: No, even with Carpenter's advantage in IP, Clemens still comes ahead in cumulative statistics such as VORP or Win Shares.

 

At this point K-Town will either go into some bizarre situation to try and denounce Clemens, or he'll go with the wins/team success route, ignoring the previous point.

 

There, now we don't have to have 3 more pages of nonsense.

 

You forgot to include that K-Town will throw in accusations that I started the thread to bait some mythical Cardinal fans into an argument.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

A little off topic, but IMB, are you giving up hope on the five guys in your sig already? I saw that and started cracking up.

That is hilarious. JT is finally going to succumb to one of the many vd's he has aquired. Penicillin is no longer effective for him. That's what happens when you are infected dozens of times and they grow a tolerance for conventional medication.

 

Wait, I thought that if you have more than one type of VD, they cancel each other out. Man, I knew I should've paid attention in sex ed. :lol:

[gus_dog]

This thread has gradually and continuously deteriorated, and IMO should be locked.

 

The arguments are the same and the logic (or illogic, as the case may be) has already been noted as circular in nature.

[K-Town]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer.

 

 

It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that.

 

I understand it perfectly.

 

Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball.

 

Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge?

 

Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb.

 

 

Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This thread has gradually and continuously deteriorated, and IMO should be locked.

 

The arguments are the same and the logic (or illogic, as the case may be) has already been noted as circular in nature.

 

The arguments have been the same since page 2 of this thread. I honestly thought it'd be locked long ago. But it keeps me entertained at work, and hasn't gotten too hostile... yet. I'm sure it'll be locked soon though, which is fine.

[imb]

Yeah, that's great. But it doesnt outweigh the fact that Clemens has been so much better in his IP, that he has still been more valuable than Carpenter, despite the IP advantage.

 

Obviously, you cant/wont agree.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I understand it perfectly.

 

Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball.

 

Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge?

 

Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb.

 

 

Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

 

So let me get this straight... you'd rather put a dead tired starter on the mound in the 9th inning with the game on the line, than a dominating closer that is fresh, and is paid to slam the door? Wow. Going the distance is fine. But you put the pitcher out there that is going to help your team win the most. A dead tired guy, and a fresh guy that is extremely dominant shouldn't even be an argument.

[IlliniAmy]

I understand it perfectly.

 

Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball.

 

Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge?

 

Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb.

 

 

Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

 

So let me get this straight... you'd rather put a dead tired starter on the mound in the 9th inning with the game on the line, than a dominating closer that is fresh, and is paid to slam the door? Wow. Going the distance is fine. But you put the pitcher out there that is going to help your team win the most. A dead tired guy, and a fresh guy that is extremely dominant shouldn't even be an argument.

 

(Why do I keep getting sucked in....it's like going by a car accident...I keep looking when I should look at the road and drive away)

 

dead tired? 92 pitches is dead tired? 101 pitches is dead tired? Good grief. You need to put a call into Dusty Baker...he left Prior in for over 130.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer.

 

 

It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that.

 

I understand it perfectly.

 

Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball.

 

Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge?

 

Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb.

 

 

Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

 

I think there's a little more to managerial strategy than that. There's many reasons to lift a pitcher from a game, from his being tired, to getting a better match-up, to needing to use a pinch hitter.

 

I think when evaluating pitchers that stats like VORP and RAAP are better indicators of a pitcher's performance than team dependent stats such as wins. I do value IP and a pitcher's ability to pitch deep into games and Carpenter deserves credit for that. On the other hand, when weighted along with runs saved and other metrics, it still isn't enough to make him the better pitcher.

 

Could that change over the course of the next three weeks? Certainly. But at this point, Clemens still deserves the Cy Young as much as it may pain me to say so.

[K-Town]

I understand it perfectly.

 

Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball.

 

Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge?

 

Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb.

 

 

Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

 

So let me get this straight... you'd rather put a dead tired starter on the mound in the 9th inning with the game on the line, than a dominating closer that is fresh, and is paid to slam the door? Wow. Going the distance is fine. But you put the pitcher out there that is going to help your team win the most. A dead tired guy, and a fresh guy that is extremely dominant shouldn't even be an argument.

 

Carpenter has a .448 OPS-against in innings 7 thru 9. The Cards have a good bullpen, but they don't have anybody THAT good.

 

Or is that just another "meaningless statistic"?

[K-Town]

Yeah, that's great. But it doesnt outweigh the fact that Clemens has been so much better in his IP, that he has still been more valuable than Carpenter, despite the IP advantage.

 

Obviously, you cant/wont agree.

 

"More valuable" is an extremely arbitrary term. We've been discussing it for 35 pages.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Amy, go out and throw 98 pitches. Then tell me how much your fastball is cracking. It may not be exhausted, but it's tired. Compare that to a lights out closer that is fresh, and tell me which one is more likely to be effective.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yeah, that's great. But it doesnt outweigh the fact that Clemens has been so much better in his IP, that he has still been more valuable than Carpenter, despite the IP advantage.

 

Obviously, you cant/wont agree.

 

"More valuable" is an extremely arbitrary term. We've been discussing it for 35 pages.

 

It's arbitrary when you ignore the number of quantitative metrics that favor Clemens when trying to determine how valuable a pitcher is.

[imb]

We've been discussing it for 35 pages because apparently, understanding statistics isn't an ingredient in Cardinal Kool-Aid.

[K-Town]

I think there's a little more to managerial strategy than that. There's many reasons to lift a pitcher from a game, from his being tired, to getting a better match-up, to needing to use a pinch hitter.

 

I think when evaluating pitchers that stats like VORP and RAAP are better indicators of a pitcher's performance than team dependent stats such as wins. I do value IP and a pitcher's ability to pitch deep into games and Carpenter deserves credit for that. On the other hand, when weighted along with runs saved and other metrics, it still isn't enough to make him the better pitcher.

 

Could that change over the course of the next three weeks? Certainly. But at this point, Clemens still deserves the Cy Young as much as it may pain me to say so.

 

That's a reasonable post. I don't necessarily agree, but it's well-stated.