Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[1wizard]

ITB wrote:

1wizard wrote:

The funny thing is that Carp's numbers are better than Clemens last year plus he is dominating in the area that Clemens' won the award on (Wins).

 

 

i think you're confusing "wins" with "name recognition" and "reputation."

 

last year has nothing to do with this year's cy young.

 

I assume you are referring to Clemens strong name recognition and reputation over Carp. I agree that Clemens will get additional votes based on that, yet last year RJ was almost as popular. Sure, last year should have everything to do with the Cy Young. Clemens lost in almost every pitching catagory except wins. So how did he win Cy Young? If wins are a poor indicator which everyone who is showing man love on here for Clemens is saying.

 

So do we just make this a popularity vote or change the criteria from year to year to ensure the most popular pitcher wins the award. I understand this award is subjective by nature but it would not look good for MLB and the media to pick Clemens this year. I know he has been great this year, but so was RJ last year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

ITB wrote:

1wizard wrote:

The funny thing is that Carp's numbers are better than Clemens last year plus he is dominating in the area that Clemens' won the award on (Wins).

 

 

i think you're confusing "wins" with "name recognition" and "reputation."

 

last year has nothing to do with this year's cy young.

 

I assume you are referring to Clemens strong name recognition and reputation over Carp. I agree that Clemens will get additional votes based on that, yet last year RJ was almost as popular. Sure, last year should have everything to do with the Cy Young. Clemens lost in almost every pitching catagory except wins. So how did he win Cy Young? If wins are a poor indicator which everyone who is showing man love on here for Clemens is saying.

 

So do we just make this a popularity vote or change the criteria from year to year to ensure the most popular pitcher wins the award. I understand this award is subjective by nature but it would not look good for MLB and the media to pick Clemens this year. I know he has been great this year, but so was RJ last year.

 

The people who vote are stupid. Shouldn't we just be happy that they get it right, even if they supposedly do it for the wrong reasons?

[imb]

This year he is losing in that catagory so everyone who has man love for Roger wants to change the criteria. Funny how that works.

 

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

[1wizard]

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

 

Show me the stats that make Clemens more deserving than RJ? He was clearly not the best pitcher based on stats other than wins. Now Clemens is on the other side of the argument and you think he deserves the award again. Come on there has to be a little common sense used here. And no I am not looking up or referring to your or anyone's post from a year ago.

 

Roger's stats last year:

18-4 ERA 2.98 K's 218 214 innings 1.16 whip

 

RJ's stats last year:

16-14 ERA 2.60 K's 290 245 innings .90 whip

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

 

Show me the stats that make Clemens more deserving than RJ? He was clearly not the best pitcher based on stats other than wins. Now Clemens is on the other side of the argument and you think he deserves the award again. Come on there has to be a little common sense used here. And no I am not looking up or referring to your or anyone's post from a year ago.

 

Roger's stats last year:

18-4 ERA 2.98 K's 218 214 innings 1.16 whip

 

RJ's stats last year:

16-14 ERA 2.60 K's 290 245 innings .90 whip

 

And I've said, as have others, that Johnson deserved the award last year. Clemens deserves it this year. Just because the voters, in my opinion, got it wrong last year, doesn't mean they should get it wrong this year too.

[treebird]

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

 

Show me the stats that make Clemens more deserving than RJ? He was clearly not the best pitcher based on stats other than wins. Now Clemens is on the other side of the argument and you think he deserves the award again. Come on there has to be a little common sense used here. And no I am not looking up or referring to your or anyone's post from a year ago.

 

Roger's stats last year:

18-4 ERA 2.98 K's 218 214 innings 1.16 whip

 

RJ's stats last year:

16-14 ERA 2.60 K's 290 245 innings .90 whip

 

this is a discussion of who deserves to win the cy young, not who the stupid voters are going to vote for.

[1wizard]

Clemens only has an opportunity for 5 more starts. Thus he could end up with no more than 16 wins. Carpenter could end up with probably no more than 24-25. If Clemens wins less than two of his final starts he would be the first Cy Young pitcher since 1981 to not win 15 games. Fernando Valenzuala won only 13 in 1981, but there was no one with more than 14 wins in the NL.

 

I understand that there are better stats for individual performance than wins, but at what point do you need to just win games. Would you really give the award to a pitcher because he has a low ERA? If Clemens fails to gain another win and Carpenter doubles him up in wins do you still feel he is deserving of the Cy?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Clemens only has an opportunity for 5 more starts. Thus he could end up with no more than 16 wins. Carpenter could end up with probably no more than 24-25. If Clemens wins less than two of his final starts he would be the first Cy Young pitcher since 1981 to not win 15 games. Fernando Valenzuala won only 13 in 1981, but there was no one with more than 14 wins in the NL.

 

I understand that there are better stats for individual performance than wins, but at what point do you need to just win games. Would you really give the award to a pitcher because he has a low ERA? If Clemens fails to gain another win and Carpenter doubles him up in wins do you still feel he is deserving of the Cy?

 

There's more to it than ERA. WARP and other stats that are much more telling of a pitcher's performance indicate that Clemens has had the better season.

 

I prefer to judge players for awards that aren't so dependent on the abilities and efforts of their teammates.

[treebird]

Clemens only has an opportunity for 5 more starts. Thus he could end up with no more than 16 wins. Carpenter could end up with probably no more than 24-25. If Clemens wins less than two of his final starts he would be the first Cy Young pitcher since 1981 to not win 15 games. Fernando Valenzuala won only 13 in 1981, but there was no one with more than 14 wins in the NL.

 

I understand that there are better stats for individual performance than wins, but at what point do you need to just win games. Would you really give the award to a pitcher because he has a low ERA? If Clemens fails to gain another win and Carpenter doubles him up in wins do you still feel he is deserving of the Cy?

 

i dont care about wins at all whatsoever. if clemens was 0-25 and carpenter was 35-0, but all the rest of clemens' numbers were better, id vote for clemens. any argument predicated on a pitcher's win-loss record is a meaningless one in my book.

[ltb]

ITB wrote:

 

i didn't even read your post after this, and i don't plan to. how hard is it to get the name right?

[1wizard]

but all the rest of clemens' numbers were better, id vote for clemens.

 

What is all the rest of Clemens' numbers were not better? Clemens has more walks, less K's, less CGs and less innings. Hell he only has one complete game. He is almost averaging an inning less per start than Carpenter.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

but all the rest of clemens' numbers were better, id vote for clemens.

 

What is all the rest of Clemens' numbers were not better? Clemens has more walks, less K's, less CGs and less innings. Hell he only has one complete game. He is almost averaging an inning less per start than Carpenter.

 

Clemens also has only one start in which he's allowed three or more runs.

[1wizard]

ITB wrote: :lol:

1wizard wrote:

ITB wrote:

 

 

i didn't even read your post after this, and i don't plan to. how hard is it to get the name right?

 

ITB, I am sorry I hope you forgive me. :roll:

[imb]

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

 

Show me the stats that make Clemens more deserving than RJ? He was clearly not the best pitcher based on stats other than wins. Now Clemens is on the other side of the argument and you think he deserves the award again. Come on there has to be a little common sense used here. And no I am not looking up or referring to your or anyone's post from a year ago.

 

Roger's stats last year:

18-4 ERA 2.98 K's 218 214 innings 1.16 whip

 

RJ's stats last year:

16-14 ERA 2.60 K's 290 245 innings .90 whip

 

Exactly, Jesus Christ.

 

We all said that RJ was deserving last year, and this year we're saying that Roger is deserving, based on the same criteria.

[ltb]

ITB wrote: :lol:

1wizard wrote:

ITB wrote:

 

 

i didn't even read your post after this, and i don't plan to. how hard is it to get the name right?

 

ITB, I am sorry I hope you forgive me. :roll:

 

LOLZ TROLLING IS FUNNY. i expected nothing less from a cardinal troll like yourself. you give the good card fans on here a bad name. at least they can read.... :)

[ltb]

You have to be joking. Go find all the posts last year where we all detailed how much Clemens deserved the award of RJ because of Clemen's wins. What's that? They aren't there? Why the hell do you think a bunch of Cub fans have man love for Roger Clemens? Ugggh.

 

Show me the stats that make Clemens more deserving than RJ? He was clearly not the best pitcher based on stats other than wins. Now Clemens is on the other side of the argument and you think he deserves the award again. Come on there has to be a little common sense used here. And no I am not looking up or referring to your or anyone's post from a year ago.

 

Roger's stats last year:

18-4 ERA 2.98 K's 218 214 innings 1.16 whip

 

RJ's stats last year:

16-14 ERA 2.60 K's 290 245 innings .90 whip

 

Exactly, Jesus Christ.

 

We all said that RJ was deserving last year, and this year we're saying that Roger is deserving, based on the same criteria.

 

but this year a cardinal is in the running!!!!! so the criteria have to be moved to fit his strengths, duh!

[Tito Landrum]

this is a post that sums up my points from a fellow blues fan who i don't ven really like

 

I'm usually very careful not to overrate Cardinals in these award discussions simply because I see them more than guys on other teams. But I think, through Sept. 3, Carpenter should get it over Clemens.

 

Each has made 28 starts and it is Carpenter who has pitched 28 1/3 more innings. Carpenter has 22 more strikeouts and seven fewer walks. Carpenter has six complete games to Clemens’ one, four shutouts to Clemens’ none.

 

And I believe a telling fact is that Clemens has worked past the seventh inning just four times while Carpenter has done so 18 times. Perhaps if Clemens was capable of pitching a little deeper into the game, he would have a few more wins to show for his incredible ERA.

 

I'm not saying the Astros should be leaving Clemens in longer. If he's out of gas, he's out of gas. But shouldn't credit be given to someone who is capable of pitching effectively deeper into the game? Given to someone who doesn't run out of gas as quickly?

 

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

this is a post that sums up my points from a fellow blues fan who i don't ven really like

 

I'm usually very careful not to overrate Cardinals in these award discussions simply because I see them more than guys on other teams. But I think, through Sept. 3, Carpenter should get it over Clemens.

 

Each has made 28 starts and it is Carpenter who has pitched 28 1/3 more innings. Carpenter has 22 more strikeouts and seven fewer walks. Carpenter has six complete games to Clemens’ one, four shutouts to Clemens’ none.

 

And I believe a telling fact is that Clemens has worked past the seventh inning just four times while Carpenter has done so 18 times. Perhaps if Clemens was capable of pitching a little deeper into the game, he would have a few more wins to show for his incredible ERA.

 

I'm not saying the Astros should be leaving Clemens in longer. If he's out of gas, he's out of gas. But shouldn't credit be given to someone who is capable of pitching effectively deeper into the game? Given to someone who doesn't run out of gas as quickly?

 

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

 

Carpenter's extra innings of great performance are taken into account in more advanced metrics. Clemens still comes out ahead.

[gus_dog]

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

[/i]

 

Me too, that's why my post-name is gus_dog. :lol:

[K-Town]

this is a post that sums up my points from a fellow blues fan who i don't ven really like

 

I'm usually very careful not to overrate Cardinals in these award discussions simply because I see them more than guys on other teams. But I think, through Sept. 3, Carpenter should get it over Clemens.

 

Each has made 28 starts and it is Carpenter who has pitched 28 1/3 more innings. Carpenter has 22 more strikeouts and seven fewer walks. Carpenter has six complete games to Clemens’ one, four shutouts to Clemens’ none.

 

And I believe a telling fact is that Clemens has worked past the seventh inning just four times while Carpenter has done so 18 times. Perhaps if Clemens was capable of pitching a little deeper into the game, he would have a few more wins to show for his incredible ERA.

 

I'm not saying the Astros should be leaving Clemens in longer. If he's out of gas, he's out of gas. But shouldn't credit be given to someone who is capable of pitching effectively deeper into the game? Given to someone who doesn't run out of gas as quickly?

 

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

 

Carpenter's extra innings of great performance are taken into account in more advanced metrics. Clemens still comes out ahead.

 

Which "metric" measures this:

 

 

The Cards and Astros battled for 13 innings Friday night (the Astros ultimately won the game). The bullpens were spent.

 

So on Saturday, Clemens and Carpenter squuare off. Clemens bails out after 5 innings (having given up 2 earned runs), with his team trailing 2-1, and Houston ends up having to use 5 more relievers, after the 13-inning affair the night before. Clemens didn't give himself a CHANCE to win that game, really. Carpenter, meanwhile, clearly didn't have his best stuff (was in alot of trouble early), but battles for 9 innings, giving up only 2 runs, and gives his team a completely rested bullpen for the next day's game.

 

This isn't the first time that Clemens has bailed out of a game early. But hey, at least he's keeping his ERA and "WARP" intact!!

 

 

Carpenter is now on pace to pitch at least 28 more innings than Clemens this year. That's the equivalent of 4 extra games. You don't think that makes a difference to a team? Carpenter's downfall is one bad start, back in April. One bad start has cost him, but people forget that he's going to pitch the equivalent of 4 extra games over Clemens.

 

 

Oh, one more thing. Carpenter has now pitched 24 innings at Minute Maid, and has a 1.13 ERA there. So don't give me this crap about how what Clemens is doing is "even more amazing, because of the park that he plays in". Minute Maid is playing as one of the most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year.

[K-Town]

but all the rest of clemens' numbers were better, id vote for clemens.

 

What is all the rest of Clemens' numbers were not better? Clemens has more walks, less K's, less CGs and less innings. Hell he only has one complete game. He is almost averaging an inning less per start than Carpenter.

 

Clemens also has only one start in which he's allowed three or more runs.

 

Wrong. Clemens has had at least 3 starts where he's allowed 3 or more earned runs (including one in August, where he allowed 5). And he's averaging almost an inning less than Carpenter per start.

 

Carpenter hasn't allowed more than 3 earned runs in a game since May. He also hasn't gone fewer than 7 innings since June 8. He's also something like 15-2 following a Cardinal loss this year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

this is a post that sums up my points from a fellow blues fan who i don't ven really like

 

I'm usually very careful not to overrate Cardinals in these award discussions simply because I see them more than guys on other teams. But I think, through Sept. 3, Carpenter should get it over Clemens.

 

Each has made 28 starts and it is Carpenter who has pitched 28 1/3 more innings. Carpenter has 22 more strikeouts and seven fewer walks. Carpenter has six complete games to Clemens’ one, four shutouts to Clemens’ none.

 

And I believe a telling fact is that Clemens has worked past the seventh inning just four times while Carpenter has done so 18 times. Perhaps if Clemens was capable of pitching a little deeper into the game, he would have a few more wins to show for his incredible ERA.

 

I'm not saying the Astros should be leaving Clemens in longer. If he's out of gas, he's out of gas. But shouldn't credit be given to someone who is capable of pitching effectively deeper into the game? Given to someone who doesn't run out of gas as quickly?

 

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

 

Carpenter's extra innings of great performance are taken into account in more advanced metrics. Clemens still comes out ahead.

 

Which "metric" measures this:

 

 

The Cards and Astros battled for 13 innings Friday night (the Astros ultimately won the game). The bullpens were spent.

 

So on Saturday, Clemens and Carpenter squuare off. Clemens bails out after 5 innings (having given up 2 earned runs), with his team trailing 2-1, and Houston ends up having to use 5 more relievers, after the 13-inning affair the night before. Clemens didn't give himself a CHANCE to win that game, really. Carpenter, meanwhile, clearly didn't have his best stuff (was in alot of trouble early), but battles for 9 innings, giving up only 2 runs, and gives his team a completely rested bullpen for the next day's game.

 

This isn't the first time that Clemens has bailed out of a game early. But hey, at least he's keeping his ERA and "WARP" intact!!

 

 

Carpenter is now on pace to pitch at least 28 more innings than Clemens this year. That's the equivalent of 4 extra games. You don't think that makes a difference to a team? Carpenter's downfall is one bad start, back in April. One bad start has cost him, but people forget that he's going to pitch the equivalent of 4 extra games over Clemens.

 

 

Oh, one more thing. Carpenter has now pitched 24 innings at Minute Maid, and has a 1.13 ERA there. So don't give me this crap about how what Clemens is doing is "even more amazing, because of the park that he plays in". Minute Maid is playing as one of the most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year.

 

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

[dalgreen]

this is a post that sums up my points from a fellow blues fan who i don't ven really like

 

I'm usually very careful not to overrate Cardinals in these award discussions simply because I see them more than guys on other teams. But I think, through Sept. 3, Carpenter should get it over Clemens.

 

Each has made 28 starts and it is Carpenter who has pitched 28 1/3 more innings. Carpenter has 22 more strikeouts and seven fewer walks. Carpenter has six complete games to Clemens’ one, four shutouts to Clemens’ none.

 

And I believe a telling fact is that Clemens has worked past the seventh inning just four times while Carpenter has done so 18 times. Perhaps if Clemens was capable of pitching a little deeper into the game, he would have a few more wins to show for his incredible ERA.

 

I'm not saying the Astros should be leaving Clemens in longer. If he's out of gas, he's out of gas. But shouldn't credit be given to someone who is capable of pitching effectively deeper into the game? Given to someone who doesn't run out of gas as quickly?

 

Like I said, I'm careful not to overrate Cardinals in these things...but at this point, it should be Carpenter.

 

Carpenter's extra innings of great performance are taken into account in more advanced metrics. Clemens still comes out ahead.

 

Which "metric" measures this:

 

 

The Cards and Astros battled for 13 innings Friday night (the Astros ultimately won the game). The bullpens were spent.

 

So on Saturday, Clemens and Carpenter squuare off. Clemens bails out after 5 innings (having given up 2 earned runs), with his team trailing 2-1, and Houston ends up having to use 5 more relievers, after the 13-inning affair the night before. Clemens didn't give himself a CHANCE to win that game, really. Carpenter, meanwhile, clearly didn't have his best stuff (was in alot of trouble early), but battles for 9 innings, giving up only 2 runs, and gives his team a completely rested bullpen for the next day's game.

 

This isn't the first time that Clemens has bailed out of a game early. But hey, at least he's keeping his ERA and "WARP" intact!!

 

 

Carpenter is now on pace to pitch at least 28 more innings than Clemens this year. That's the equivalent of 4 extra games. You don't think that makes a difference to a team? Carpenter's downfall is one bad start, back in April. One bad start has cost him, but people forget that he's going to pitch the equivalent of 4 extra games over Clemens.

 

 

Oh, one more thing. Carpenter has now pitched 24 innings at Minute Maid, and has a 1.13 ERA there. So don't give me this crap about how what Clemens is doing is "even more amazing, because of the park that he plays in". Minute Maid is playing as one of the most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year.

 

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

 

As you will quickly find out ,now that you're a Missouri resident, there is a definite "small market" inferiority complex among St. Louis sports fans and media. Flip the script, and give Carpenter Clemens' stats and the team, and give Clemens Carpenter's stats and team and they'd swear Carpenter should win the Cy Young. To me, there are great arguments for both guys, but I hate how in St. Louis there seems to be a great feeling of injustice if Carpenter doesn't win it. I just find it remarkable how any pitcher pitching in Minute Maid half the time can have a below 2.00 ERA. Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

As you will quickly find out ,now that you're a Missouri resident, there is a definite "small market" inferiority complex among St. Louis sports fans and media. Flip the script, and give Carpenter Clemens' stats and the team, and give Clemens Carpenter's stats and team and they'd swear Carpenter should win the Cy Young. To me, there are great arguments for both guys, but I hate how in St. Louis there seems to be a great feeling of injustice if Carpenter doesn't win it. I just find it remarkable how any pitcher pitching in Minute Maid half the time can have a below 2.00 ERA. Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

 

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

[gus_dog]

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

 

I don't know if they are worse that the Rockies, but they are pretty bad.