2006 Cubs and Juan Pierre??

[Hossman]

I think as the Cubs look for possible trades this off-season, Juan Pierre is a player they should target first. Pierre is due for a big salary hike next season and will be a free agent after 2006. I saw a blurb on ESPN that said the Marlins may not be comfortable keeping his salary next season. Would the Marlins be interested in taking Patterson + prospect in exchange for Juan Pierre (they still have Castillo who can lead off)??

 

After this, my suggestion for the rest of the off-season goes like this:

 

1. Let Lawton, Nomar, and Burnitz go. This should free up plenty of money when you consider Sosa, Remlinger, and Hawkins' contracts are unloaded as well.

2. Sign Brian Giles to a 2-3 year contract.

3. Sign Billy Wagner or at least acquire another quality arm in bullpen.

4. Start Cedeno at SS, and Pie in the OF.

5. Re-sign Todd Walker

6. Move Kerry Wood back to the rotation after off-season surgery, and give Rich Hill a chance to earn the final spot in the rotation.

 

I think these moves position us well for the short-term and long-term, and gets some of our young talent on the field every day. Perhaps most importantly, our defense would be upgraded up the middle and have more range in the OF. We could win more games with fundamentals and solid defense, instead of having to shut teams down or out-homer them (yes I thought Steve Stone made a great point in the paper).

 

Projected line-up:

 

Juan Pierre CF

Todd Walker 2B

Derrek Lee 1B

Brian Giles LF

Aramis Ramirez 3B

Felix Pie RF

Michael Barrett C

Ronny Cedeno SS

 

Rotation: Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Maddux, Hill

Setup: Dempster, Williamson

Closer: Wagner

[OldHappyCubFan]

good idea. I love that scenario.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Matt Lawton is roughly infinity times better than Juan Pierre. Pierre has been TERRIBLE this season, and he wasn't very good to begin with. To put it in perspective, people have been harsh on Patterson this year, and he and Pierre have identical OPS's(.650 to .649). Patterson created more runs last year despite a 50 point gap in their OBP's. Patterson is the superior fielder. There's really no reason to take Pierre over Patterson(nevermind Lawton), yet in most baseball circles, Pierre is a small ball hero, and Patterson is on the fringe of obscurity.

[imb]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

[Hossman]

I agree that Pierre has performed quite poorly this season, but I think he deserves a little more credit. His three year average (heading into this season) was .307/.357/.376 with very good outfield range and over 50 stolen bases per season. He gets on base, scores runs, and only strikes out about every 15-17 at bats.

 

I like Lawton as a player as well, but I wouldn't say he's infinitely better than Pierre, if at all. Lawton's three year averages were .257/.352/.414. I would prefer to trade for the younger Pierre as opposed to re-signing an aging Lawton to a 2-3 year deal.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

Pierre in left is the biggest waste of that position ever.

[imb]

If Pierre and Pie have to be in the same outfield, lets put them in the right places at least.

 

A Giles/Pie/Pierre OF would produce so little power, you might not be able to turn the lights on for a night game.

[Outshined_One]

Pierre's a decent player, but he'll get more money than he's worth. His problems:

 

-An arm that's comparable in strength to Damon.

-Poor judgment on the base paths. Don't believe me? The most effective SB guys have a success percentage at or around 75%. Pierre's success percentage is worse than that by a fair margin over the past three years.

-Laughable power.

-An OBP inflated by AVG. He can take his share of BBs, but it's not enough to make me salivate at the prospect of getting him.

 

His upsides:

 

-Speed on the basepaths which can wreak havoc, assuming he's not picked off or caught stealing.

-The ability to bunt for a hit on a semi-consistent basis.

-Doesn't strike out very often.

-Can beats out double plays.

-Decent range in CF.

 

If the Cubs had no immediate options in CF and could put together a small package of two decent players close to the majors, then I'd give it some thought. Problem is, they have two options who will be ready next season. Corey Patterson and Felix Pie. Both are better than Pierre defensively. Both can hit for more power than Pierre. Speed-wise, they're fairly comparable to Pierre. Both will be better overall offensive players than Pierre when all is said and done.

 

An OF of Giles/Pie/Pierre would not be the way to go from an offensive standpoint, especially with the lineup you're bringing out there. Lee and Ramirez would be the only consistent power threats (although Giles might still have some gas left in the tank). If Lee regresses to his career numbers, you're in trouble. Your lineup will likely not score a whole lot of runs.

 

Can't say I'm a fan of the idea.

[neely crenshaw]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

Pierre in left is the biggest waste of that position ever.

 

no that would be this years string of left fielders...and centerfielders and right fielders...

[CubinNY]

NO!

[burnt out cubbie fan]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

Pierre in left is the biggest waste of that position ever.

 

no that would be this years string of left fielders...and centerfielders and right fielders...

Murton > Pierre

Burnitz > Pierre

[chopsx9]

Pierre's a decent player, but he'll get more money than he's worth. His problems:

 

 

-An OBP inflated by AVG. He can take his share of BBs, but it's not enough to make me salivate at the prospect of getting him.

 

 

First thing I agree with the rest of your post and maybe this is just a wording issue. All things being equal I'll take an OBP inflated by average everyday of the week and eight times on Sunday. A hit is better than a walk. This is not even debatable. Although there seem to be some on this board (not saying you are one of them) who seem to think otherwise. You can take issue with the level of his OBP, which really is not all that bad except for this year, but you are essentially saying his batting average is too high.

 

Pierre is not nearly as bad, again this year is a different story so far, as some make him out to be on this board. That said I don't really see a reason for him to be on the Cubs in 2006 as I would like to see some other players get a shot. Which probably means he'll end up a Cub while Murton and Pie rot on the bench or in the minors.

[brinoch]

Here's a real simple chart to keep in mind that I think is reflective of the extreme majority of the board:

 

Hit>Walk>Out

 

Characterizing people as preferring walks to hits is a ridiculous strawman argument, and I can't stand by and let it pass. I can't recall anyone saying such a thing. What people *do* prefer are hitters who have the plate discipline to take pitches -- and, yes, walks -- rather than swing at pitcher's pitches and make outs. A perfect example of this debate is Jose Macias vs. Todd Walker, or Neifi Perez vs. Jeromy Burnitz. Their averages are about in the same neighborhood, but Walker and Burnitz are head and shoulders above Macias and Perez, respectively.

 

On base percentage is arguably the most important individual offensive metric. Walks are an integral part of that -- as are hits. But a guy who only gets on base via hits isn't as valuable, offensively, as one who takes a good number of walks.

[erik316wttn]

If Pierre and Pie have to be in the same outfield, lets put them in the right places at least.

 

A Giles/Pie/Pierre OF would produce so little power, you might not be able to turn the lights on for a night game.

 

I'd be ok with Giles/Pie/Murton.

 

I just really have a good feeling about Murton and want to see him get his shot. He obviously won't get it under Dusty. But I think we'd be making a mistake if we just traded him or didn't let him get his chance.

 

But then we'd be without a leadoff hitter. So then you'd have to go Murton/Lawton/Pie. But then you couldn't have Giles.

 

Dammit, this makes my head hurt. Hendry had better make the right decision.

[chopsx9]

Here's a real simple chart to keep in mind that I think is reflective of the extreme majority of the board:

 

Hit>Walk>Out

 

Characterizing people as preferring walks to hits is a ridiculous strawman argument, and I can't stand by and let it pass. I can't recall anyone saying such a thing. What people *do* prefer are hitters who have the plate discipline to take pitches -- and, yes, walks -- rather than swing at pitcher's pitches and make outs. A perfect example of this debate is Jose Macias vs. Todd Walker, or Neifi Perez vs. Jeromy Burnitz. Their averages are about in the same neighborhood, but Walker and Burnitz are head and shoulders above Macias and Perez, respectively.

 

On base percentage is arguably the most important individual offensive metric. Walks are an integral part of that -- as are hits. But a guy who only gets on base via hits isn't as valuable, offensively, as one who takes a good number of walks.

 

So the statement saying his OBP is "inflated" by average is not saying that?? That is exactly what that statement is suggesting.

 

The statement (paraphrased) it doesn't matter how you get on base as long as you do, a hit is as good as a walk; has been used more than once on these boards. Check the numerous Dunn threads and you will find several examples of this.

 

Where in my post did I say a walk was a bad thing??

 

I am not sure what the point of all your player comparisons are as in my post I stated "all things being equal". So if two players have identical OBP's I'll take the one with the higher batting average everyday of the week; again "all things being equal". So if one of them has 60hrs and the other has 2hrs....well then that changes things.

 

Maybe you don't have to stand for the argument but maybe you can pull up a chair and give it a better read next time.

[Hossman]

This team needs to acquire (or re-sign) a leadoff hitter and big bat for next year. However, doing so would come at the expense of getting some of our youth on the field every day - it's a tough situation and hard to come up with an answer that addresses everything.

 

I think this team's biggest problem is that we have gone into the last two seasons without a leadoff hitter that can get on base and spark the offense. I like Juan Pierre's youth and ability to get on base at the top of the lineup, but it looks like most aren't in favor of the move.

 

What would be a better move at the top of the lineup? Re-sign an aging Matt Lawton? Fork over a boatload for Johnny Damon? Sign an overrated Rafael Furcal who really isn't a leadoff hitter?

[chopsx9]

Also where did I say a majority of the board - I said "some" - please do not put words in my mouth.

 

Simple Chart: 1

[brinoch]

Also where did I say a majority of the board - I said "some" - please do not put words in my mouth.

 

Simple Chart: 1

 

I assume this is directed at me. I suggest you kindly re-read my post. Now that you've done so, please tell exactly what were those words I put in your mouth?

 

I thought so.

[AAApittsburgh]

This team needs to acquire (or re-sign) a leadoff hitter and big bat for next year. However, doing so would come at the expense of getting some of our youth on the field every day - it's a tough situation and hard to come up with an answer that addresses everything.

 

I think this team's biggest problem is that we have gone into the last two seasons without a leadoff hitter that can get on base and spark the offense. I like Juan Pierre's youth and ability to get on base at the top of the lineup, but it looks like most aren't in favor of the move.

 

What would be a better move at the top of the lineup? Re-sign an aging Matt Lawton? Fork over a boatload for Johnny Damon? Sign an overrated Rafael Furcal who really isn't a leadoff hitter?

Yes, I'd take him everyday and twice on Sunday's over Pierre, and he wouldn't block Pie. Cubs just need to make sure they get some power out of the other corner OF spot.

[chopsx9]

Here's a real simple chart to keep in mind that I think is reflective of the extreme majority of the board:

 

 

You are welcome.

[Fanatic3332000]

Why are we talking Brian Giles, i know it is a weak year for outfielders, but wouldn't you think the Cubs would try to trade for someone better than him? The guy is 34 years old, salary is 8 million plus this year, and he has 11 homers and 57 rbis, those are michael barrett like numbers....pierre is not the answer either, i'd rather have murton over him, keep patterson in center or package him, his swing looks a lot flatter than what it was yesterday.....

[Bull]

Also where did I say a majority of the board - I said "some" - please do not put words in my mouth.

 

Simple Chart: 1

 

I assume this is directed at me. I suggest you kindly re-read my post. Now that you've done so, please tell exactly what were those words I put in your mouth?

 

I thought so.

 

don't hurt him too bad brionch.

 

BTW have you checked your private messages recently?

[Gunned]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

Pierre in left is the biggest waste of that position ever.

fielders...

Murton > Pierre

 

We all love Matt Murton, but that's ridiculous.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Why are we talking Brian Giles, i know it is a weak year for outfielders, but wouldn't you think the Cubs would try to trade for someone better than him? The guy is 34 years old, salary is 8 million plus this year, and he has 11 homers and 57 rbis, those are michael barrett like numbers....pierre is not the answer either, i'd rather have murton over him, keep patterson in center or package him, his swing looks a lot flatter than what it was yesterday.....

 

I don't care how many home runs or RBI's the guy has, he's hitting .289/.418/.487/.905, and that's at a park that is killer against left handers. Away from Petco he's hitting a ridiculous .333/.459/.588/1.047.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

also, if pie and pierre are going to be in the same outfield, lets go ahead and put pie in center.

Pierre in left is the biggest waste of that position ever.

fielders...

Murton > Pierre

 

We all love Matt Murton, but that's ridiculous.

 

Not at all. Pierre is not very good.