Deal for Soriano or Dunn close?

[Guest]

Again, I love Adam Dunn, but what if we can't trade for him?

Better to make no deals at all than make a bad one...

 

I loved Moneyball, and believe in Jamesean / Sabermetric theories

I can't believe that runs and RBI's are meaningless.

It's hard to see how those two statements can be reconciled with one another. Runs/RBI are clearly inefficient methods for player evaluation. Stats that isolate a player's production from context are vastly superior, and they show that Walker and Soriano provide the same level of offensive production.

 

My point is that both are good for evaluation. But even Bill James and Billy Beane will tell you that you cannot throw out one or the other when evaluating a player. And in this instance, Soriano's classic (not archaic) baseball statistics more heavily outweigh Walker's abstract data. You just cant throw out one in favor of the other - that's not the way Sabermetric and abstract statistics were meant to be used.

No, the SABR-style thinking woud mean you'd use the best available data to evaluate the two players. The best avaialble data clearly indicates Soriano is no upgrade at all over Walkewr.

[ThePenguin11]

Again, I love Adam Dunn, but what if we can't trade for him?

Better to make no deals at all than make a bad one...

 

I loved Moneyball, and believe in Jamesean / Sabermetric theories

I can't believe that runs and RBI's are meaningless.

It's hard to see how those two statements can be reconciled with one another. Runs/RBI are clearly inefficient methods for player evaluation. Stats that isolate a player's production from context are vastly superior, and they show that Walker and Soriano provide the same level of offensive production.

 

My point is that both are good for evaluation. But even Bill James and Billy Beane will tell you that you cannot throw out one or the other when evaluating a player. And in this instance, Soriano's classic (not archaic) baseball statistics more heavily outweigh Walker's abstract data. You just cant throw out one in favor of the other - that's not the way Sabermetric and abstract statistics were meant to be used.

No, the SABR-style thinking woud mean you'd use the best available data to evaluate the two players. The best avaialble data clearly indicates Soriano is no upgrade at all over Walkewr.

 

That's just being stubborn. But like I said before, I'm done debating Soriano. I'm agreeing to disagree.

[nilodnayr]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong!

 

EDIT: Was beaten by 9874534 posters and deleted insult.

[ThePenguin11]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong! Seriously, go to http://www.espn.com. They have all kinds of great stats there.

 

Look at his starts. 5 k's in each of them. Like I conceded he'll be a decent strikeout pitcher. But it is WRONG to think that he's going to strike out nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors at AA.

 

And frankly, I think your tone is condescending and rude. I'm getting tired of some posters here acting like know-it-alls and acting like posters with only 300 or less posts couldn't possibly know anything regarding baseball.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong! Seriously, go to http://www.espn.com. They have all kinds of great stats there.

 

Look at his starts. 5 k's in each of them. Like I conceded he'll be a decent strikeout pitcher. But it is WRONG to think that he's going to strike out nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors at AA.

 

And frankly, I think your tone is condescending and rude. I'm getting tired of some posters here acting like know-it-alls and acting like posters with only 300 or less posts couldn't possibly know anything regarding baseball.

 

ha, he just came up. of course he's not going to strike out 14 guys a game. give him some time in the big leagues before you declare that he's not a strikeout pitcher.

[nilodnayr]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong! Seriously, go to http://www.espn.com. They have all kinds of great stats there.

 

Look at his starts. 5 k's in each of them. Like I conceded he'll be a decent strikeout pitcher. But it is WRONG to think that he's going to strike out nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors at AA.

 

And frankly, I think your tone is condescending and rude. I'm getting tired of some posters here acting like know-it-alls and acting like posters with only 300 or less posts couldn't possibly know anything regarding baseball.

 

I had already edited it out above, but within 5 minutes you made two embarassing claims (Rangers offense is same as Cubs and Hill isn't an ML K pitcher) that could have easily been adverted if you would have looked them up before you posted. Next time you dont want 17 posters telling you you are wrong just look it up before hand. I realized the tone could have been condescending (especially after i saw everyone else jump on you) thats why I deleted it even before you posted. Im not a know it all but the stats are out there an easily available. I dont think theres a single person alive who thought that Hills K rate would not drop making the transition to the majors. But even with a drop, he can still be one of the better strike out pitchers.

[muntjack]

According to rotoworld, ESPN reports that John Hart will NOT be trading Soriano.

[nilodnayr]

According to rotoworld, ESPN reports that John Hart will NOT be trading Soriano.

 

God I hope hes telling the truth...although I wouldnt mind him going to the Mets. :D

[muntjack]

Link

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2120988

[Fro]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

[ThePenguin11]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong! Seriously, go to http://www.espn.com. They have all kinds of great stats there.

 

Look at his starts. 5 k's in each of them. Like I conceded he'll be a decent strikeout pitcher. But it is WRONG to think that he's going to strike out nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors at AA.

 

And frankly, I think your tone is condescending and rude. I'm getting tired of some posters here acting like know-it-alls and acting like posters with only 300 or less posts couldn't possibly know anything regarding baseball.

 

I had already edited it out above, but within 5 minutes you made two embarassing claims (Rangers offense is same as Cubs and Hill isn't an ML K pitcher) that could have easily been adverted if you would have looked them up before you posted. Next time you dont want 17 posters telling you you are wrong just look it up before hand. I realized the tone could have been condescending (especially after i saw everyone else jump on you) thats why I deleted it even before you posted. Im not a know it all but the stats are out there an easily available. I dont think theres a single person alive who thought that Hills K rate would not drop making the transition to the majors. But even with a drop, he can still be one of the better strike out pitchers.

 

A lot of people also backed me up that the Rangers also have deeper lineup. 17 posters didn't tell me I was wrong either. All I'm saying is that Hill is not going to be a prolific strikeout pitcher like he was in the minors. Someones argument was that he led the minors in strikeouts. So what? Zito was probably good at striking out AA players too. It doesn't mean that he wouldn't eventually be effective in the majors. I think Hill will be good in the majors - I argue that he's not going to strikeout 200 guys in a season until (or if) he develops another pitch. Your post was truly uncalled for and its posts like that - that really make me want to take a break from this board. Thanks man. What a great day for baseball, I think I'll take some in.

[David]

PLS PLS PLS PLS DUNN

[USSoccer]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

 

According to Rotoworld, there's been speculation about Griffey to the Cubs....

 

It's on the main page.

 

So that's weird....

[rickrolled]

I have a feeling we won't get anybody. I didn't want Soriano much anyways, but it seems like Cincy is just too stubborn to trade Dunn.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I don't like our chances. :cry:

[Illini Iceman]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

 

I think Hendry will get Kearns sooner or later. He may not do it today, but Kearns would probably get through waivers anyway and it may even be an offseason move. When Hendry likes a guy (e.g. - Barrett, Burnitz) he usually eventually finds a way to get him.

[CubsWin]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

Except that Hill's 9.72 K/9 (albeit small sample size) says your wrong! Seriously, go to http://www.espn.com. They have all kinds of great stats there.

 

Look at his starts. 5 k's in each of them. Like I conceded he'll be a decent strikeout pitcher. But it is WRONG to think that he's going to strike out nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors at AA.

 

And frankly, I think your tone is condescending and rude. I'm getting tired of some posters here acting like know-it-alls and acting like posters with only 300 or less posts couldn't possibly know anything regarding baseball.

Penguin,

 

Please go back and find the post in which someone claimed he would strikeout "nearly as many guys in the majors as he did in the minors". You can't because there isn't one. What people did do was disagree with your claim that he wouldn't be a strikeout guy in the majors. Of course, the stats show that he is striking out 9.72 batters per 9 innings. That puts him up there with Prior and Wood. Are those guys strikeout pitchers in the major leagues?

 

Come on, you are better than this.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

 

I think Hendry will get Kearns sooner or later. He may not do it today, but Kearns would probably get through waivers anyway and it may even be an offseason move. When Hendry likes a guy (e.g. - Barrett, Burnitz) he usually eventually finds a way to get him.

 

There's no way Kearns makes it through waivers. His contract is nothing, under a mil.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

 

I think Hendry will get Kearns sooner or later. He may not do it today, but Kearns would probably get through waivers anyway and it may even be an offseason move. When Hendry likes a guy (e.g. - Barrett, Burnitz) he usually eventually finds a way to get him.

 

i don't think there's any way kearns makes it through waivers to the cubs

[Illini Iceman]

FWIW, Griffey and Kearns aren't starting for Cincy today.

 

I think Hendry will get Kearns sooner or later. He may not do it today, but Kearns would probably get through waivers anyway and it may even be an offseason move. When Hendry likes a guy (e.g. - Barrett, Burnitz) he usually eventually finds a way to get him.

 

i don't think there's any way kearns makes it through waivers to the cubs

 

Maybe you are right(though stranger things have happened when teams put a lot of guys on revocable waivers as a smoke screen), but I still think Hendry keeps pursuing him into the offseason.

[abuck1220]

if hill maintained his minor league strikeout rate, he'd be one of the best strikeout pitchers in baseball history. so i guess if that's your expectation, you're bound to be disappointed.