Left Field: Would you rather have Murton or Dunn?

[ZZ Thorn]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up. The guy is getting PT, so I can't really complain, yet.

 

What I liked about that 4 hit day is that 2 of those hits were scrappy infield hits that Murton beat out with his speed. That's a pretty typical leadoff hitter's trait. Murton also has good SB speed - he said that Boston never gave him enough opportunities to steal bases - hopefully he can be successful the first few times Dusty lets him steal.

 

If Dusty 'hates' Hairston as some suspect, then Murton should get some more PT with the way he's playing.

[E.J.]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up. The guy is getting PT, so I can't really complain, yet.

 

What I liked about that 4 hit day is that 2 of those hits were scrappy infield hits that Murton beat out with his speed. That's a pretty typical leadoff hitter's trait. Murton also has good SB speed - he said that Boston never gave him enough opportunities to steal bases - hopefully he can be successful the first few times Dusty lets him steal.

 

If Dusty 'hates' Hairston as some suspect, then Murton should get some more PT with the way he's playing.

 

Um...the Yankees and Atlanta have rookies who are helping as we speak. Atlanta had 10 rookies on the team at one point this season.

[CoolHandLuke]

Why don't people realize that Home Runs are NOT the answer? We need line drive hitters who have a good BA when runners are in scoring position. We need solid batters who execute and are clutch. Batters who KNOW how to hit a single, when a single is needed. That answer is Matt Murton in LF for now.

 

 

Call me crazy but I don't mind guys who hit homers when a single is needed.

 

Heres my off the wall theory: HR>1B

 

Also Juan pierre is one of the most overrated players in baseball. He is decent but I can't wait until he hits free agency and somebody gives him about 8 million a year. Speaking of overrated, isnt it funny how Carlos Beltran goes from being one of the most underrated players to being one of the most overrated players?

[ZZ Thorn]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up. The guy is getting PT, so I can't really complain, yet.

 

What I liked about that 4 hit day is that 2 of those hits were scrappy infield hits that Murton beat out with his speed. That's a pretty typical leadoff hitter's trait. Murton also has good SB speed - he said that Boston never gave him enough opportunities to steal bases - hopefully he can be successful the first few times Dusty lets him steal.

 

If Dusty 'hates' Hairston as some suspect, then Murton should get some more PT with the way he's playing.

 

Um...the Yankees and Atlanta have rookies who are helping as we speak. Atlanta had 10 rookies on the team at one point this season.

 

Same with the DBacks recently, but how many of these players platoon and how many were handed the starting job outright? I'll bet it's heavily weighted towards the normal usage for rookies, the platoon.

 

If Dubois hadn't done not that well, he could have started for us.... Thankfully, Murton is off to a much better start.

[E.J.]

Why don't people realize that Home Runs are NOT the answer? We need line drive hitters who have a good BA when runners are in scoring position. We need solid batters who execute and are clutch. Batters who KNOW how to hit a single, when a single is needed. That answer is Matt Murton in LF for now.

 

 

Call me crazy but I don't mind guys who hit homers when a single is needed.

 

Heres my off the wall theory: HR>1B

 

Also Juan pierre is one of the most overrated players in baseball. He is decent but I can't wait until he hits free agency and somebody gives him about 8 million a year. Speaking of overrated, isnt it funny how Carlos Beltran goes from being one of the most underrated players to being one of the most overrated players?

 

You forgot to add that Beltran is probably the most overpaid player as well. :wink:

Edited July 22, 2005 by E.J.

[imb]

Is it overpayed or overpaid?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Is it overpayed or overpaid?

 

In case you were serious, overpaid.

[imb]

I asked because I always type it "overpayed", and then i say "wait, thats not right" and i fix it.

[E.J.]

I asked because I always type it "overpayed", and then i say "wait, thats not right" and i fix it.

 

I like to wait until someone feels the need to correct me before I fix it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up. The guy is getting PT, so I can't really complain, yet.

 

What I liked about that 4 hit day is that 2 of those hits were scrappy infield hits that Murton beat out with his speed. That's a pretty typical leadoff hitter's trait. Murton also has good SB speed - he said that Boston never gave him enough opportunities to steal bases - hopefully he can be successful the first few times Dusty lets him steal.

 

If Dusty 'hates' Hairston as some suspect, then Murton should get some more PT with the way he's playing.

 

What's wrong with this is that rookies often contribute on contending teams.

 

In 1995, the Braves called up a thirdbaseman named Chipper Jones from AAA Richmond. He had only previously received 3 ABs in 93 as a September call-up. The Braves let him play 140 games in 95 en route to a division championship and WS championship.

 

In 1996, the Braves gave playing time down the stretch to 19 yr old Andruw Jones.

 

In 2000, the Braves turned to a 22 year old to be their starting shortstop. If my memory is correct, they won the division that year too.

 

In 2001, the Braves gave 68 starts to a 23 yr old secondbaseman named Marcus Giles en route...to what? You guessed it, another divisional title.

 

In 2004, the Braves turned to a young catcher, Johnny Estrada who earned a trip to the All-Star game and once again helped the Braves to a divisional title. Also in 2004, the Braves allowed rookie Adam LaRoche to play over 100 games.

 

This year, Cox has stuck with rookies even when they struggled. I think this commitment to allow the best from your young players to play every day is a prime reason the Braves have been as good as they have been. I think Dusty could learn a lot from Bobby Cox who has an entirely different philosophy about the kids than old Dusty. Dusty feels that unless the kid comes up and plays superbly right away, he's best served by watching and waiting his turn. Cox believes that if a kid has played every day in the minors and all his life, the only way to assist him in suceeding so he can help the team is to let him play everyday. I think history has born out whose approach is more successful.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Back to the question of this thread, I would still rather have Dunn than Murton. He just brings more to the table.

 

That being said, we have Murton and don't currently have Dunn. We need to begin using the tools we have properly. Murton should be playing 3/4 of the time regardless of who is pitching.

 

Secondly, Murton is a contact hitter who does the little things right. He is patient and is willing to hit the ball the other way. As much as I was happy to see Todd Walker in the the 2 spot, he has more power than Murton.

 

I'd make a line-up shift.

 

Hairston

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Walker

Barrett

Burnitz

Perez

[BadKermit]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

Who says the Cubs are a contending team?

[burnt out cubbie fan]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

Hmm, are the Angels, Yankees, or Braves contenders this year? How about the Twins every year. Or the Marlins in 03. I could go on if you want me to.

[frostwyrm]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

 

I seem to recall getting swept by a Braves team that had 10 rookies on its roster. I also recall that 4 Braves rookies were in the starting batting order for the last game.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

 

I seem to recall getting swept by a Braves team that had 10 rookies on its roster. I also recall that 4 Braves rookies were in the starting batting order for the last game.

 

I posted this in another thread, but the words of Bobby Cox deserve another mention.

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

 

That is just the opposite of what Dusty has said publicly. If Cox were manager of the Cubs, Dubois would have been left in for a stretch of games, regardless. Murton would be out there everyday, and likely hitting second. Cedeno would be playing too.

[rickrolled]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

 

I seem to recall getting swept by a Braves team that had 10 rookies on its roster. I also recall that 4 Braves rookies were in the starting batting order for the last game.

 

I posted this in another thread, but the words of Bobby Cox deserve another mention.

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

 

That is just the opposite of what Dusty has said publicly. If Cox were manager of the Cubs, Dubois would have been left in for a stretch of games, regardless. Murton would be out there everyday, and likely hitting second. Cedeno would be playing too.

 

Wow. I like that, that's good managing from Cox.

 

Too bad Dusty will never do that, and Murton/Cedeno will never see consistent PT. :(

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

 

I seem to recall getting swept by a Braves team that had 10 rookies on its roster. I also recall that 4 Braves rookies were in the starting batting order for the last game.

 

I posted this in another thread, but the words of Bobby Cox deserve another mention.

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

 

That is just the opposite of what Dusty has said publicly. If Cox were manager of the Cubs, Dubois would have been left in for a stretch of games, regardless. Murton would be out there everyday, and likely hitting second. Cedeno would be playing too.

 

Wow. I like that, that's good managing from Cox.

 

Too bad Dusty will never do that, and Murton/Cedeno will never see consistent PT. :(

 

I've said it before, but I think the Braves have been the best run organization over the last 15-20 years. I like what Hendry has been doing, but I think we'll need a different skipper to ever hope to make that kind of run.

[Coach C]

People may say I'm just backing Dusty, but I don't know too many situtations where rookies start every day, on a contending team, in their first call up.

 

I seem to recall getting swept by a Braves team that had 10 rookies on its roster. I also recall that 4 Braves rookies were in the starting batting order for the last game.

 

I posted this in another thread, but the words of Bobby Cox deserve another mention.

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

 

That is just the opposite of what Dusty has said publicly. If Cox were manager of the Cubs, Dubois would have been left in for a stretch of games, regardless. Murton would be out there everyday, and likely hitting second. Cedeno would be playing too.

 

Wow. I like that, that's good managing from Cox.

 

Too bad Dusty will never do that, and Murton/Cedeno will never see consistent PT. :(

 

I've said it before, but I think the Braves have been the best run organization over the last 15-20 years. I like what Hendry has been doing, but I think we'll need a different skipper to ever hope to make that kind of run.

 

This expert 100% agrees.

[ZZ Thorn]

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

Does anyone think Murton be a perennial all-star, like people all but guaranteed with some of those Braves prospects. He's not in the same category as a prospect as the above guys, tho he was having a phonomenal year at AA. I'd say Bobby Cox is a great regular season manager, but he's also been given phonomenal talent, to say nothing of the pitching.

 

But I agree with his philosophy, throw 'em out there see how they do, but tossing out top 10 prospects like the ones I mention is a no brainer. Who would have any problems taking their lumps with guys like that?

 

I think we could have Dunn and Murton in LF and CF. Murton's a smart hitter, with speed - sure hope he gets a chance to leadoff soon. I wouldn't expect him to need to change his batting style either, he already has such a good approach.

 

His approach is so foreign to me as a Cubs fan - someone who goes to the plate, waits as long as he can to hit it to center and right every time, as opposed to looking to pull the home run every time? Then when he gets into a hitters count then maybe look for a pitch to pull? I like it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

Does anyone think Murton be a perennial all-star, like people all but guaranteed with some of those Braves prospects. He's not in the same category as a prospect as the above guys, tho he was having a phonomenal year at AA. I'd say Bobby Cox is a great regular season manager, but he's also been given phonomenal talent, to say nothing of the pitching.

 

But I agree with his philosophy, throw 'em out there see how they do, but tossing out top 10 prospects like the ones I mention is a no brainer. Who would have any problems taking their lumps with guys like that?

 

I think we could have Dunn and Murton in LF and CF. Murton's a smart hitter, with speed - sure hope he gets a chance to leadoff soon. I wouldn't expect him to need to change his batting style either, he already has such a good approach.

 

His approach is so foreign to me as a Cubs fan - someone who goes to the plate, waits as long as he can to hit it to center and right every time, as opposed to looking to pull the home run every time? Then when he gets into a hitters count then maybe look for a pitch to pull? I like it.

 

Murton and Dubois are just as good of a prospect as Kelly Johnson who is referred to in Cox's quote above.

 

If Dusty were managing the Braves, Mondesi would still be getting time in the outfield. You could bank on it.

 

The proof is there. Cox allows his rookies to take their lumps and as a result the Braves consistiently turn out nice players.

 

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

They were top prospects and maybe better than Dubois, Cedeno, and Murton. I'm not at home so I can't go back and compare rankings...but I think Choi was at least as highly rated as some of those when he were rising through the ranks.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Let's compare two quotes, one by Baker and one by Cox.

 

Cox on rookie Kelly Johnson:

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

Baker on rookie Matt Murton:

 

 

"You have to bring them along slowly unless they're like a Miguel Cabrera," he said. "But there aren't too many guys like that around. It's different per person."

 

 

I wish we had more of the former and less of the latter. And guess which one has proven to be more successful.

 

But I guess Baker still has more sex than Cox, so that's all that matters.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

Does anyone think Murton be a perennial all-star, like people all but guaranteed with some of those Braves prospects. He's not in the same category as a prospect as the above guys, tho he was having a phonomenal year at AA. I'd say Bobby Cox is a great regular season manager, but he's also been given phonomenal talent, to say nothing of the pitching.

 

But I agree with his philosophy, throw 'em out there see how they do, but tossing out top 10 prospects like the ones I mention is a no brainer. Who would have any problems taking their lumps with guys like that?

 

I think we could have Dunn and Murton in LF and CF. Murton's a smart hitter, with speed - sure hope he gets a chance to leadoff soon. I wouldn't expect him to need to change his batting style either, he already has such a good approach.

 

His approach is so foreign to me as a Cubs fan - someone who goes to the plate, waits as long as he can to hit it to center and right every time, as opposed to looking to pull the home run every time? Then when he gets into a hitters count then maybe look for a pitch to pull? I like it.

 

Murton and Dubois are just as good of a prospect as Kelly Johnson who is referred to in Cox's quote above.

 

If Dusty were managing the Braves, Mondesi would still be getting time in the outfield. You could bank on it.

 

The proof is there. Cox allows his rookies to take their lumps and as a result the Braves consistiently turn out nice players.

 

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

They were top prospects and maybe better than Dubois, Cedeno, and Murton. I'm not at home so I can't go back and compare rankings...but I think Choi was at least as highly rated as some of those when he were rising through the ranks.

Here you go. http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2005/4/8/11438/38755

 

According to John Sickels, number 3 overall (note that he is above Giles :D ). I can't find the top whatever list for BA on their website.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

Does anyone think Murton be a perennial all-star, like people all but guaranteed with some of those Braves prospects. He's not in the same category as a prospect as the above guys, tho he was having a phonomenal year at AA. I'd say Bobby Cox is a great regular season manager, but he's also been given phonomenal talent, to say nothing of the pitching.

 

But I agree with his philosophy, throw 'em out there see how they do, but tossing out top 10 prospects like the ones I mention is a no brainer. Who would have any problems taking their lumps with guys like that?

 

I think we could have Dunn and Murton in LF and CF. Murton's a smart hitter, with speed - sure hope he gets a chance to leadoff soon. I wouldn't expect him to need to change his batting style either, he already has such a good approach.

 

His approach is so foreign to me as a Cubs fan - someone who goes to the plate, waits as long as he can to hit it to center and right every time, as opposed to looking to pull the home run every time? Then when he gets into a hitters count then maybe look for a pitch to pull? I like it.

 

Murton and Dubois are just as good of a prospect as Kelly Johnson who is referred to in Cox's quote above.

 

If Dusty were managing the Braves, Mondesi would still be getting time in the outfield. You could bank on it.

 

The proof is there. Cox allows his rookies to take their lumps and as a result the Braves consistiently turn out nice players.

 

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

They were top prospects and maybe better than Dubois, Cedeno, and Murton. I'm not at home so I can't go back and compare rankings...but I think Choi was at least as highly rated as some of those when he were rising through the ranks.

Here you go. http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2005/4/8/11438/38755

 

According to John Sickels, number 3 overall (note that he is above Giles :D ). I can't find the top whatever list for BA on their website.

 

Thanks. I knew Choi was considered at least as good as those the Braves gave chances to.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Also, look at the Twins. They bring up young players all of the time, it seems and they stick with them. They gave the full time first base job to Morneau last year.

[ZZ Thorn]

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

Does anyone think Murton be a perennial all-star, like people all but guaranteed with some of those Braves prospects. He's not in the same category as a prospect as the above guys, tho he was having a phonomenal year at AA. I'd say Bobby Cox is a great regular season manager, but he's also been given phonomenal talent, to say nothing of the pitching.

 

But I agree with his philosophy, throw 'em out there see how they do, but tossing out top 10 prospects like the ones I mention is a no brainer. Who would have any problems taking their lumps with guys like that?

 

I think we could have Dunn and Murton in LF and CF. Murton's a smart hitter, with speed - sure hope he gets a chance to leadoff soon. I wouldn't expect him to need to change his batting style either, he already has such a good approach.

 

His approach is so foreign to me as a Cubs fan - someone who goes to the plate, waits as long as he can to hit it to center and right every time, as opposed to looking to pull the home run every time? Then when he gets into a hitters count then maybe look for a pitch to pull? I like it.

 

Murton and Dubois are just as good of a prospect as Kelly Johnson who is referred to in Cox's quote above.

 

If Dusty were managing the Braves, Mondesi would still be getting time in the outfield. You could bank on it.

 

The proof is there. Cox allows his rookies to take their lumps and as a result the Braves consistiently turn out nice players.

 

The Jones, Giles, Estrada, Furcal, Lopez... all all-stars and all top prospects, and I mean top prospects.

 

Unlike Hill, Choi, Dubois, Cedeno... and Murton. Not even close to those guys in terms of 'prospect stature' when they made the bigs.

 

They were top prospects and maybe better than Dubois, Cedeno, and Murton. I'm not at home so I can't go back and compare rankings...but I think Choi was at least as highly rated as some of those when he were rising through the ranks.

Here you go. http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2005/4/8/11438/38755

 

According to John Sickels, number 3 overall (note that he is above Giles :D ). I can't find the top whatever list for BA on their website.

 

Thanks. I knew Choi was considered at least as good as those the Braves gave chances to.

 

Wow, they sure were wrong about Choi eh?

 

I know Choi was rated the highest among that Cub group I mentioned, now compare all the other prospects: for the Braves the Jones, Furcal, Giles, Estrada and for the Cubs Dubois, Hill, Murton, Cedeno then I'll consider your objections well-rounded.

 

I'd do it, but I've already had this exact discussion before. The Braves I named are mainly top 10 prospects by BA. Choi and Hill were the only top 50 guys.

 

Morneau is a totally top blue chip prospect....Again, you want to prove your point by bringing up the top few excellers in this field - you ignore the other 25 teams who do the same thing as fail. Why is that? It really comes down not to the manager and his philosphy, but the talent the manager is given I believe.