Blame Game

[ThePenguin11]

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

 

I'm sorry but I tried to do my best to support the fact that he's not a power hitter. He's a tiny player who puts everything he can into a ball and every once in a while it goes 425 feet. 80% of the time he's barely clearing the fence or hitting it to the track. Todd Walker hit one 425 the other day - is he a power hitter? If he did anything but try to hit it as far as he could every time he batted he'd be a better hitter and probably even hit more home runs.

[imb]

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

 

Dont you, though?

 

Totally off-topic, but my grandfather says that all the time.

 

Me:Yeah, the food was good.

Him:Wasn't it, though?

Me:Yeah, I love hamburgers.

Him:Dont you, though?

Me:Yeah, they put the extra spice on there.

Him:Dont they, though?

[Roast]

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

 

I'm sorry but I tried to do my best to support the fact that he's not a power hitter. He's a tiny player who puts everything he can into a ball and every once in a while it goes 425 feet. 80% of the time he's barely clearing the fence or hitting it to the track. Todd Walker hit one 425 the other day - is he a power hitter? If he did anything but try to hit it as far as he could every time he batted he'd be a better hitter and probably even hit more home runs.

 

I never said he was a "power hitter"

 

I simply said he is not a guy with "warning track power."

 

Do you beleive there is no inbetween ground, no grey area? He is either a prolific slugger or the second cousin of Jose Macias?

 

You can probably divide hitters, as far as HR's go, into four categories, IMO.

 

1. No power (warning track power). They hit less than 10 HR's a year.

 

2. Some power. They hit from 10-25 Homers per year.

 

3. Very good Power. They hit 25-35 Homers per year.

 

4. All power. They Crush the ball. 40 Homers is a pile of donkey poo that they step in, if they dont watch where they are walking.

 

Right now, corey is in category two. One day, he could probably make category three. But, to say he has warning track power is not true by any sense of the word.

[ThePenguin11]

I guess my point was that Corey thinks he has the power to be a slugger in this league. Our debate started running a bit of a tangent when you defended his ability to hit homeruns vs. my comment that he has warning track power. I exaggeraged a bit with my comments, but he's just not strong enough to consistently hit homers. He can't drive it to left center, let alone go opposite field, so I characterize him as a mediocre, or average homerun hitter. I don't ever see him being more than that. That's my opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours.

 

I put him in category 2. I dont think he'll ever hit more than 30 homeruns and I believe he thinks he's in the 3-4 range on your scale.

Edited July 13, 2005 by ThePenguin11

[imb]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

[ThePenguin11]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

 

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep.

[Guest]

I look at it this way: Corey Patterson is the only player on this team that has not carried his weight in the lineup or in the field. All 7 other hitting positions have gotten hot and helped carry this team, including Neifi Perez.

Despite 2-3 weeks of quality ABs, Neifi has been a bigger problem for the Cubs offense than Corey. Yes, those 2-3 weeks were nice, but the good they did the Cubs pales in comparison to the harm he's caused by being an automatic out GIDP machine the other two and a half months of the season. I realize that it's easier to replace production in center than it is at short, but the bottom line is that Neifi has been the worst Cub regular this year. (Shocking, I know.)

[halplm]

When Corey is hitting well, he is a power hitter. He hits home runs and drives in players on base.

 

When he is not hitting well, he still gets those home runs, but he doesn't do anythign else right.

 

What does this mean? It means he hits well when he tries to HIT, and hits poorly, but with some pop, when he tries to hit HOME RUNS.

 

This year, he's been tossed around, never gotten in stride, thrown at the top of the order, expected to get on base. He is not, nor has he ever been, nor will he ever be, an OBP guy. That's why several weeks of Patterson, Neifi, and Macias in the top two spots practically killed the season.

 

Corey is an RBI producer, who should be in the 6th or 7th spot in the order, with little to no pressure on him to do ANYTHING but drive in runners on base.

 

Corey's major problem, is the Cubs organization has tried to get him to do everything a baseball player could be asked to do EXCEPT that.

 

Corey should be slotted in the 7th spot and left there for the next 5 years. No shuffling, no leadoff... just hit .270, get you're RBI's, and play great defense.

 

Now if only we had a Manager who didn't feel like he wasn't doing his job if he didn't drastically change the lineup every day...

[imb]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

 

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep.

 

I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way.

 

Adam Dunn, I think we would all agree is at the top of the list as far as strongest homerun hitters go. He hits mammoth homeruns, no one would ever accuse him of having warning track power. How many homeruns does he have to opposite field? Two.

 

If you want to say that Corey isn't a good hitter, no one will disagree with you, but to say that he doesnt have power because he doesnt hit the ball out to the opposite field is stupid.

[ZZ Thorn]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

 

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

[Soul]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

 

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep.

 

I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way.

 

I agree Corey's main problem is discipline---and I would add to that his bat speed needs to improve, or at least the length of his swing (it's just too long & loopy).

 

But there's no way in hell Corey possesses more upper body strength than Derek Lee & ARam. Corey's a pretty strong kid for his size, but he's not in Lee or Ramirez's class strength-wise.

[ZZ Thorn]

Corey might be the strongest pound-for-pound, but a heavyweight always beats the middleweight (unless you're Roy Jones Jr., and Corey isn't half the athelte Roy is, and it's not like Roy could beat every heavyweight.) If Corey was a big mook like Dunn he'd be fine swinging from his heels every time, but he's not.

[imb]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

 

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep.

 

I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way.

 

I agree Corey's main problem is discipline---and I would add to that his bat speed needs to improve, or at least the length of his swing (it's just too long & loopy).

 

But there's no way in hell Corey possesses more upper body strength than Derek Lee & ARam. Corey's a pretty strong kid for his size, but he's not in Lee or Ramirez's class strength-wise.

 

I read an article last season that said that Corey has the highest bench press of any Cub. He's ridiculously strong. This isnt even the point however, people dont hit a lot of homeruns because of their strong upper body.

[ThePenguin11]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

 

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently.

[ThePenguin11]

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

 

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep.

 

I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way.

 

I agree Corey's main problem is discipline---and I would add to that his bat speed needs to improve, or at least the length of his swing (it's just too long & loopy).

 

But there's no way in hell Corey possesses more upper body strength than Derek Lee & ARam. Corey's a pretty strong kid for his size, but he's not in Lee or Ramirez's class strength-wise.

 

You mean those guys can hit 400 foot homeruns, too?

[Fred Hornkohl]

I look at it this way: Corey Patterson is the only player on this team that has not carried his weight in the lineup or in the field. All 7 other hitting positions have gotten hot and helped carry this team, including Neifi Perez.

Despite 2-3 weeks of quality ABs, Neifi has been a bigger problem for the Cubs offense than Corey. Yes, those 2-3 weeks were nice, but the good they did the Cubs pales in comparison to the harm he's caused by being an automatic out GIDP machine the other two and a half months of the season. I realize that it's easier to replace production in center than it is at short, but the bottom line is that Neifi has been the worst Cub regular this year. (Shocking, I know.)

 

BK.... check your calendar again. When I look at Neifi's line, I see 6.5 weeks of quality AB's and 7 weeks of industrial strength suckage.

 

Perez          AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 04/30  68  11  25   2   1   3  38  12   3   7  0.368  0.403  0.559  0.962
05/01 - 05/15  50   4   7   2   0   1  12   2   2   5  0.140  0.170  0.240  0.410
05/17 - 06/05  83  11  33   5   0   3  47  12   1   5  0.398  0.407  0.566  0.973
06/06 - 07/09 121   8  18   3   0   0  21   4   3  14  0.149  0.175  0.174  0.348

Overall       327  34  86  12   1   7 121  32   9  31  0.263  0.287  0.370  0.657

 

He's about the most streaky hitter I can ever recall, but when you take his overall line for the year, it's pretty close to his career averages. Now, I'll readily concede that's not at all good, but Neifi is your backup shortstop, not your starter. If you really want to consider him as a starter, then consider this........

 

04/04 - 07/10      AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
Perez             326   36   86   12    1    7  121   32    9   31  0.264  0.287  0.371  0.659
Patterson         314   36   73    9    2   11  119   24   16   83  0.232  0.270  0.379  0.649

 

While there's not enough difference here to argue over, Corey does have the lower OPS. Let's just hope that Corey puts it all back together quickly, Neifi has one good hot streak left in him, and Nomar comes back and is effective as soon as he says he will ...... then, hopefully, it all becomes academic.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/25 - 06/10 113  15  42  10   1   5  69  22   5  11  0.372  0.408  0.611  1.019
07/05 - 07/10  13   4   5   1   0   0   6   2   7   2  0.385  0.619  0.462  1.081

 

Burnitz        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 05/01  92  15  28   7   2   5  54  17   6  20  0.304  0.337  0.587  0.924
06/02 - 06/22  73  16  27   7   0   4  46  12   7  12  0.370  0.425  0.630  1.055

 

Walker         AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 04/10  21   3   8   2   0   0  10   3   2   0  0.381  0.435  0.476  0.911
06/09 - 06/29  53   8  21   4   1   0  27   6   4   4  0.396  0.431  0.509  0.940
07/08 - 07/10  13   6   6   2   0   1  11   4   2   1  0.462  0.533  0.846  1.379

 

I don't want to enter into an argument over what constitutes "carrying a team", but over the course of a long season, every player will have their hot streaks and their cold streaks. That applies pretty much without exception. Even the dregs like Macias and Perez have their hot streaks. Making determinations based soley on one's recollection of events is indeed dangerous.... but making a determination based on the lack of recollection of events is just as risky.

[imb]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

 

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently.

 

I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently.

 

I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team.

 

Quite right, IMB. They get hot.... and they get cold. It's the nature of the beast.

 

Barrett        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 04/24  54   3   9   2   0   2  17   6   2   5  0.167  0.207  0.315  0.522
06/11 - 07/04  59   4   7   2   0   2  15   8   4  10  0.119  0.172  0.254  0.426

 

Burnitz        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
05/02 - 06/01 106  11  23   3   0   3  35  13   8  16  0.217  0.272  0.330  0.602

 

Even Derrek Lee looks surprisingly mortal at times......

 

Lee            AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/30 - 05/26  80  11  20   4   0   5  39  12  13  23  0.250  0.367  0.488  0.855
06/24 - 07/05  42   6  11   1   2   2  22   3   0   6  0.262  0.262  0.524  0.786

[neely crenshaw]

first, why compare neifi and corey? neifi is a bench filling in for nomar. anything we get from him is bonus.

corey was supposed to be our stud outfielder after losing alou and sosa.

 

this was supposed to be about whose to blame. there is plenty to go around.

1. corey. his approach is plain bad for his skills. he has power but he should not be a "power hitter". 25 hrs is a nice number but no where near enough to change your entire approach to get there. he would be much-much more valuable if he hit 20 and hit .270

2. dusty. he has forced corey into a situation he really isn't equipped to have success at.

 

3. hendry-did we all not know that the cubs really needed someone to leadoff? it has been 2 seasons since lofton helped get us to the playoffs(funny isn't) still hendry has not addressed this need at all. he also left our outfield very weak, perhaps putting even more pressure on corey to help replace sosa'a and alou's power numbers.

 

we need corey to be corey. yes he will have some k's and bad at bats. but if we can find someone to be a real-life lead off man and get a serious out field threat, corey would be fine. we certainly could live with him hitting even .250 out of the 7 hole, while hitting some homers,stealing some bases and playing good defense.

[ThePenguin11]

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/25 - 06/10 113  15  42  10   1   5  69  22   5  11  0.372  0.408  0.611  1.019
07/05 - 07/10  13   4   5   1   0   0   6   2   7   2  0.385  0.619  0.462  1.081

 

Burnitz        AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 05/01  92  15  28   7   2   5  54  17   6  20  0.304  0.337  0.587  0.924
06/02 - 06/22  73  16  27   7   0   4  46  12   7  12  0.370  0.425  0.630  1.055

 

Walker         AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/04 - 04/10  21   3   8   2   0   0  10   3   2   0  0.381  0.435  0.476  0.911
06/09 - 06/29  53   8  21   4   1   0  27   6   4   4  0.396  0.431  0.509  0.940
07/08 - 07/10  13   6   6   2   0   1  11   4   2   1  0.462  0.533  0.846  1.379

 

I don't want to enter into an argument over what constitutes "carrying a team", but over the course of a long season, every player will have their hot streaks and their cold streaks. That applies pretty much without exception. Even the dregs like Macias and Perez have their hot streaks. Making determinations based soley on one's recollection of events is indeed dangerous.... but making a determination based on the lack of recollection of events is just as risky.

 

Good research, Fred and thanks for the back up. I've been feeling like I was on an island about Patterson until you and ZZ showed up.

[ThePenguin11]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

 

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently.

 

I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team.

 

That's not the point. The point is that we can actually recall on one hand the times that Corey Patterson helped this team in 2005. Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

[Roast]

I agree that Corey is not a slugger, but that he thinks he is. He swings from his heels on every swing, which is what a slugger does.

 

Also, I think Penguin's point that Corey never carried the team this year is pretty telling. If you play everyday like Corey, no matter how much you are moved around in the lineup, and you don't have even a short stretch when you carry the team, you deserve to lose your starting job or be demoted.

 

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events

 

Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently.

 

I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team.

 

That's not the point. The point is that we can actually recall on one hand the times that Corey Patterson helped this team in 2005. Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Oh, thats the point now? Seems to me your "point" keeps changing.

[ThePenguin11]

One thing that I will give to Patterson is that in the month of April he did manage to score 18 Runs. The downside is that he had only 2 doubles while striking out 19 times and took walks exactly twice. It would be fair to say he was helpful to the team on one hand, on the other you could say that his lack of discipline at the plate cost the Cubs on even more run scoring potential by being impatient.