Dear Cubs - don't let the Maddux option vest

[treebird]

Maybe he could trade him to a team that scores some runs and has a bullpen.

 

ill bet greg would like that. i kinda feel bad for the poor guy. i feel bad for all the good cub players, but at least the younger ones still have enough years left that theyll be able to sign with someone good before its too late. poor greg might have to end his career here. its a real shame. things were so much better back when he signed. short of z's elbow exploding (which may well be forthcoming), i think you might struggle to realistically play out these last couple seasons any worse than theyve gone.

[Laura]

At least he can regale Prior and Z with tales of 1992, when he went 20-14. In his 14 losses, the Cubs were completely shut out 7 times. Prior and Z can probably relate.

 

If you're even a tiny bit competitive, you want the win, even if it's a bogus stat blah blah. You want the team to win, but you want to win, too. If the Cubs were to do something like bench Maddux so his option didn't vest -- which I don't see happening even in an alternate bizarro universe --don't pretend that the same message isn't being sent to the young pitchers that was sent in 1992 -- that the long-term profit margin is a lot more important than the long-term winning percentage. It would be unrealistic to assume that Prior and/or Z would re-sign here if they do not see a long-term commitment to winning from the organization.

 

They signed him to a contract. I wouldn't have bet against Maddux pitching 400 innings/2 yrs back when he signed, and, sure enough, he's going to do it. Just like Rusch's incentives are going to kick in because he's in the starting rotation, and just like Neifi! has probably already secured his incentives for being the starting shortstop.

 

ETA: I agree Maddux is overpaid and will be more so if the option vests, but that's the price to be borne for bad contractual decisionmaking. He will produce -- just likely not at the levels we'd all prefer -- so it's not a case of paying out millions of dollars and getting nothing in return.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm going to make a few comments on the Maddux situation.

 

First, I don't like the option year, but I was fairly certain it would vest the moment he signed. Pitching over 200 innings a season for Maddux is almost a certainty as taxes. So, I've always assumed the option would vest.

 

I thought he was going to get too many dollars when he signed. But the fact is, as I've said before, Hendry was building for a winner in 2004. He made some shaky financial decisions based on those moves. This year we're living with the remnants of two situations. One is the decision to go for broke in 2004. The second is the decision that the 2004 team was flawed and that Sosa, Alou, Farnsworth and others had to go regardless of the cost.

 

As Hendry put the finishing touches on the 2004 Cubs, he wanted a reliable arm for the last spot in the rotation. He didn't trust Mitre or Cruz to be that pitcher and dangling before him was an aging Greg Maddux. The Giants were offering a larger two year deal than Hendry could afford, so Hendry added the option year. He could only pay Maddux 6 million in 2004 and felt he was the final piece. 6 in 2004 and 9 in 2005 wasn't going to get it done; therefore the last option year at 9 was added and the 2004 gamble was complete.

 

Should Hendry have gambled for it all in 2004? Well, given the results of 2003, it's hard to blame him. Did he make the wrong gambles? Likely...but he assumed Borowski would be a healthy closer so he added the expensive set-up man in Hawkins. He didn't predict the Wood and Prior injuries or that Sosa would deteriorate both in skills and personality so rapidly. 2004's collapse left us with what we have today and it's not pretty. Had we won it all last season, we're likely sitting here with different feelings on this team and even the Maddux contract. Unfortunately, it is just one more remnant of the fateful decision that 2004 would be the year to go for broke.

 

We signed the contract. Maddux has lived up to his part. His skills are declining, but he's still better than other options. If Maddux wants to be traded, I'd try to accomodate him. I might even try to work out a financial settlement to get him to retire...but in no way do I deliberately keep him from getting the innings.

[nilodnayr]

A point that hasn't been brought up is that I'd argue that the $4M tag is lowballing. Look at the glut of mediocre pitchers last year who all signed 3 yr 21M+ contracts.

 

I'm not saying we should be one of those teams signing the Jon Liebers and Eric Miltons of the world to $7-8M per year contracts. But guys like Woody Williams and Jeff Suppan are good signings for the production they give you. There are always average pitchers available for $3-4M per year, and there are always going to be overrated pitchers like Milton or Lieber who will get a lot more than they should.

 

 

Ohh right, two guys coming off injuries who are pitching worse than Maddux.

 

Put together a list of pitchers who the cubs could pick up next year for 4M that will give us the same production of Maddux. Heres some pictchers with the same or worse value/production as Maddux.

 

Russ Ortiz

Hampton

Ponson

Contreras

Millwood

Byung-Hyun Kim

Leiter

Pettitte

Washburn

Weaver

Mays

Glavine

Trachsel

Mussina

Kevin Brown

Wright

Rueter

Park

[Illini Iceman]

I'm going to make a few comments on the Maddux situation.

 

First, I don't like the option year, but I was fairly certain it would vest the moment he signed. Pitching over 200 innings a season for Maddux is almost a certainty as taxes. So, I've always assumed the option would vest.

 

I thought he was going to get too many dollars when he signed. But the fact is, as I've said before, Hendry was building for a winner in 2004. He made some shaky financial decisions based on those moves. This year we're living with the remnants of two situations. One is the decision to go for broke in 2004. The second is the decision that the 2004 team was flawed and that Sosa, Alou, Farnsworth and others had to go regardless of the cost.

 

As Hendry put the finishing touches on the 2004 Cubs, he wanted a reliable arm for the last spot in the rotation. He didn't trust Mitre or Cruz to be that pitcher and dangling before him was an aging Greg Maddux. The Giants were offering a larger two year deal than Hendry could afford, so Hendry added the option year. He could only pay Maddux 6 million in 2004 and felt he was the final piece. 6 in 2004 and 9 in 2005 wasn't going to get it done; therefore the last option year at 9 was added and the 2004 gamble was complete.

 

Should Hendry have gambled for it all in 2004? Well, given the results of 2003, it's hard to blame him. Did he make the wrong gambles? Likely...but he assumed Borowski would be a healthy closer so he added the expensive set-up man in Hawkins. He didn't predict the Wood and Prior injuries or that Sosa would deteriorate both in skills and personality so rapidly. 2004's collapse left us with what we have today and it's not pretty. Had we won it all last season, we're likely sitting here with different feelings on this team and even the Maddux contract. Unfortunately, it is just one more remnant of the fateful decision that 2004 would be the year to go for broke.

 

We signed the contract. Maddux has lived up to his part. His skills are declining, but he's still better than other options. If Maddux wants to be traded, I'd try to accomodate him. I might even try to work out a financial settlement to get him to retire...but in no way do I deliberately keep him from getting the innings.

 

Hendry was definitely going for broke in 2004. If you had told anyone after the NLCS in 2003 that in 2004 they would add Barrett, Lee, Hawkins, Maddux and Garciaparra plus keep the rest of the main core they would have been thrilled. Hendry made the right moves to win in 2004 and end the drought but he got unlucky with injuries. I think that this year he tried to do the best he could, but was somewhat handcuffed by the financial restrictions from the moves while going for broke in 2004. It doesn't look to good for this year, but it is early and if they can get the rotation healthy and in a groove they might be able to put together some good runs. However, next yeat I think Hendry will be back in a position to be a major player in free agency and trades where he takes on salary from other teams.

Personally, I think it was great what he did in 2004. I never had so much hope for the Cubs. It stinks that it did not work out but I am really glad he at least made a full out effort.

[cubs dane]

Problem with Hendrys approach was you knew you were going to be without the corner OFs, which translates into a huge deficit on offense.

 

You traded a durable, sometimes brilliant Farnsworth , and didnt replace him. Plus did nothing to the closer situation. Like taking 2 steps backwards.

 

Plus last years team had more depth. Thats why we hung on til Sept. we had Gruds, Holly as a sub, Clement as another SP, Farns as another strong arm in the BP.

 

This 2005 product is not the quality of 2004. Weve had injuries this year, Nomar, Walker, and Wood. I submit to you that the 2004 team would have absorbed the lost of Wood(Clement), and Walker(Gruds), Nomar(more over-all offensive) and would be near the top, even with Dusty managing.

[NCCubFan]

[Let's see...Greg got offers from the Braves and the Yankees. Maddux then contacted Himes and offered to be a Cub for the same amount he had turned down in the summer, which was less than the Yankees had offered. Himes didn't, but I've heard before that the Trib could have been faulted for not allowing Himes.

My initial understanding (based on Ryne Sandberg's autobiography, Second To Home) was that it was Himes' decision not to re-sign Maddux. However, I've later read (both on this board and in the book The Million to One Team) that the Trib refused to allot Himes the money it would take. By that time the Cubs had signed some other free agent pitchers (I believe Jose Guzman and Randy Myers, and maybe Greg Hibbard as well, although I'm not sure if he signed with the Cubs that season or a different season). Basically, the money that would have gone to Maddux had been spent by then and the Trib wouldn't increase the payroll (unlike last year, when they gave Hedry extra money specifically to sign Maddux).

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm going to make a few comments on the Maddux situation.

 

First, I don't like the option year, but I was fairly certain it would vest the moment he signed. Pitching over 200 innings a season for Maddux is almost a certainty as taxes. So, I've always assumed the option would vest.

 

I thought he was going to get too many dollars when he signed. But the fact is, as I've said before, Hendry was building for a winner in 2004. He made some shaky financial decisions based on those moves. This year we're living with the remnants of two situations. One is the decision to go for broke in 2004. The second is the decision that the 2004 team was flawed and that Sosa, Alou, Farnsworth and others had to go regardless of the cost.

 

As Hendry put the finishing touches on the 2004 Cubs, he wanted a reliable arm for the last spot in the rotation. He didn't trust Mitre or Cruz to be that pitcher and dangling before him was an aging Greg Maddux. The Giants were offering a larger two year deal than Hendry could afford, so Hendry added the option year. He could only pay Maddux 6 million in 2004 and felt he was the final piece. 6 in 2004 and 9 in 2005 wasn't going to get it done; therefore the last option year at 9 was added and the 2004 gamble was complete.

 

Should Hendry have gambled for it all in 2004? Well, given the results of 2003, it's hard to blame him. Did he make the wrong gambles? Likely...but he assumed Borowski would be a healthy closer so he added the expensive set-up man in Hawkins. He didn't predict the Wood and Prior injuries or that Sosa would deteriorate both in skills and personality so rapidly. 2004's collapse left us with what we have today and it's not pretty. Had we won it all last season, we're likely sitting here with different feelings on this team and even the Maddux contract. Unfortunately, it is just one more remnant of the fateful decision that 2004 would be the year to go for broke.

 

We signed the contract. Maddux has lived up to his part. His skills are declining, but he's still better than other options. If Maddux wants to be traded, I'd try to accomodate him. I might even try to work out a financial settlement to get him to retire...but in no way do I deliberately keep him from getting the innings.

 

Hendry was definitely going for broke in 2004. If you had told anyone after the NLCS in 2003 that in 2004 they would add Barrett, Lee, Hawkins, Maddux and Garciaparra plus keep the rest of the main core they would have been thrilled. Hendry made the right moves to win in 2004 and end the drought but he got unlucky with injuries. I think that this year he tried to do the best he could, but was somewhat handcuffed by the financial restrictions from the moves while going for broke in 2004. It doesn't look to good for this year, but it is early and if they can get the rotation healthy and in a groove they might be able to put together some good runs. However, next yeat I think Hendry will be back in a position to be a major player in free agency and trades where he takes on salary from other teams.

Personally, I think it was great what he did in 2004. I never had so much hope for the Cubs. It stinks that it did not work out but I am really glad he at least made a full out effort.

 

Right. I agreed with all the moves prior to the 2004 season. I felt we had a team that would win it all. Alas, we didn't. I also saw the black cloud forming when I saw the Alou buy-out, the fact that Maddux's salary would escalate by 3 million, that Wood and Lee's salaries would escalate by 1.5 million each, the raises due Zambrano, Ramirez, and Patterson as well as raises to Hawkins and Remlinger. I knew that very little would be added this offseason. The money was spent for a run last year.

 

Next year, hopefully money will be cleared to restack the deck. Even with Maddux making 9 million, the Cubs will have money to spend. The Sosa money will be off the books as will Remlinger's and Borowski's. The Cubs will have to be wise how those resources are allocated. I have some ideas in mind, but I'll save them for a thread later this season.

[Crash]

The Cubs would be committing PR suicide if they were to intentionally limit Maddux's innings so his option doesn't vest. Not only is he one of the most popular Cub players with fans, he is universially respected by the entire league. Given that that Cubs haven't exactly been lighting up the work with good public perception the last year or so they can't really afford to generate more bad will.

 

While it is true that a majority of free agents base their decision to play for a team on money, that doesn't mean that this kind of PR won't have a big impact on them. Essentially the Cubs would be intentionally and underhandedly taking money away from a player. That is going to hit home in a big way with free agents because it is basically dealing in bad faith.

 

And even if none of the prior reasons were true I still wouldn't want the Cubs to screw with Maddux in this way because it is classless.

[Texas Goat Farmer]

Anyone remember the situation in Baltimore in regards to playing time for Palmeiro and his contract vesting for 2005.

 

Baltimore wasn't able to sign free agents for this year. Was that just a coincidence or was that something players and their agents remembered.

 

I would hope that Maddux retires after this year, but I am not optimistic that will happen.

[CuseCubFan69]

I would like the Cubs to trade Maddux to Atlanta or another team that is in the playoff hunt.

[TruffleShuffle]

I would like the Cubs to trade Maddux to Atlanta or another team that is in the playoff hunt.

 

I can't see a team taking him in the stretch run with him likely to have his option vest next year unless the Cubs throw in about $4M toward that option.

[CuseCubFan69]

I would like the Cubs to trade Maddux to Atlanta or another team that is in the playoff hunt.

 

I can't see a team taking him in the stretch run with him likely to have his option vest next year unless the Cubs throw in about $4M toward that option.

 

I think how much money depends on what players the Cubs would recieve. I would like to see Hendry grow a pair and move some of these vets.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I would like the Cubs to trade Maddux to Atlanta or another team that is in the playoff hunt.

 

I can't see a team taking him in the stretch run with him likely to have his option vest next year unless the Cubs throw in about $4M toward that option.

 

I think how much money depends on what players the Cubs would recieve. I would like to see Hendry grow a pair and move some of these vets.

 

If it is clear that Cubs are out of the race, I would not be opposed to moving Maddux. I also think it can be done in a way that shows dignity and class. First Hendry would need to approach Maddux and float the idea by him. Maddux only has one ring, and likely would want another. I wouldn't be surprised if he would have interest in going somewhere that would improve his chances this year.

[Mark Priors Calves]

I'm just throwing this out there as I have no real insight into this even being a possibility but is there any chance Maddux retires after this season?

[CuseCubFan69]

I would like the Cubs to trade Maddux to Atlanta or another team that is in the playoff hunt.

 

I can't see a team taking him in the stretch run with him likely to have his option vest next year unless the Cubs throw in about $4M toward that option.

 

I think how much money depends on what players the Cubs would recieve. I would like to see Hendry grow a pair and move some of these vets.

 

If it is clear that Cubs are out of the race, I would not be opposed to moving Maddux. I also think it can be done in a way that shows dignity and class. First Hendry would need to approach Maddux and float the idea by him. Maddux only has one ring, and likely would want another. I wouldn't be surprised if he would have interest in going somewhere that would improve his chances this year.

 

I agree that Maddux has earned that respect and that's why I mentioned Atlanta as one of the places.

[ManEatingTarp]

I'm just throwing this out there as I have no real insight into this even being a possibility but is there any chance Maddux retires after this season?

 

uh....

no.

 

 

With that much coin coming up with the option there is no way he steps away. I can't see the Cubs trading him either. He is still a good pitcher, but makes too much for what he is at this point. He also doesn't have the best playoff record.

just my opinion.

[Lefty]

The truth is, if Maddux finishes just short of the 187 1/3 he needs, the Cubs will accept the option obligation anyway. Only an injury prevents it from happening. Averaging 5 and two-thirds a game (for the year) gets him there.

[neely crenshaw]

maddux saved our butt last year. he and z were it. he has won 16 games at least every year. yes 9 mil is steep for someone who is 4-5 starter. however, he is no worse than our 3rd....wood has better stuff but he is hurt, will continue be hurt and has never won more than 14. to me we are paying him a lot of money for what he brings. promise and 50 censt gets you a phone call.

also part of the reason we would pay him 9 mil is because he was a team player and took less up front to help the team. heck he might even work it lower if he thought the cubs would spend it to help the club.

the cubs have benefited from his knowledge, his 300th win, his professionalism and just having back as a cub to go out of their way to "screw him" out of the option would be a travesty-business or not. i am sure the free agents would be lining up to give them the cubs discount after that.

if we can eat 12 mil to have sammy not play for us, we better eat 3-4 mil (amount he is overpaid) for a classy veteren pitcher who could lead us in wins....again.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Rozner chimes in on the Maddux situation.

 

 

 

Maddux has a no-trade provision in his contract, which would play into any scenario. Beyond that, GM Jim Hendry has an overwhelming respect for what Maddux has accomplished, not to mention the fact that he turned down better offers to return to the Cubs.

 

“I came back here for a lot of reasons, and winning was definitely one of them,’’ Maddux said. “I also love the city and love Wrigley. Winning’s great. Everyone wants to win. But it’s May.

 

 

It seems that Maddux is not thinking ahead to whether he would accept a trade if the Cubs become sellers. He doesn't say he would, but he also doesn't rule it out.

 

As for Maddux, it’s hard to imagine him turning down a chance to go to a World Series if it were in the right city, but that’s so far down the road that he can’t understand the timing of such rumors.

 

“We’re really just trying to win games,’’ Maddux said. “I’m not thinking about what I would do if Jim came to me with something like that, or anything else like that.

 

“Winning games is my only concern right now. Really, dude, that’s all that’s on my mind.’’

 

[CuseCubFan69]

Rozner chimes in on the Maddux situation.

 

 

 

Maddux has a no-trade provision in his contract, which would play into any scenario. Beyond that, GM Jim Hendry has an overwhelming respect for what Maddux has accomplished, not to mention the fact that he turned down better offers to return to the Cubs.

 

“I came back here for a lot of reasons, and winning was definitely one of them,’’ Maddux said. “I also love the city and love Wrigley. Winning’s great. Everyone wants to win. But it’s May.

 

 

It seems that Maddux is not thinking ahead to whether he would accept a trade if the Cubs become sellers. He doesn't say he would, but he also doesn't rule it out.

 

As for Maddux, it’s hard to imagine him turning down a chance to go to a World Series if it were in the right city, but that’s so far down the road that he can’t understand the timing of such rumors.

 

“We’re really just trying to win games,’’ Maddux said. “I’m not thinking about what I would do if Jim came to me with something like that, or anything else like that.

 

“Winning games is my only concern right now. Really, dude, that’s all that’s on my mind.’’

 

 

Dude? It must be the Dusty effect.

 

The two worst days for me as a Cub fan were losing Madlock and Maddux. It's nice to see that Greg loves being in Chicago and that he and Hendry have respect for one another. I'm curious to see how this thing plays out.

[gus_dog]

The two worst days for me as a Cub fan were losing Madlock and Maddux.

 

I agree with those sentiments. It really used to just make me sick watching Maddux pitch for the Braves when he really very easily could have been a Cub for life.

 

Dumb management at the time. #-o

[badgercub]

Hypothetically speaking - Maddux, over the last few years has been a much better pitcher in the second half of seasons. Let's say Maddux ends up going 16-8 with an ERA of 3.5 (those are about his averages over the last three years) Would he be worth the 9 million he is scheduled to make next year? In my opinion, yes. I know everyone is saying Maddux is our #4 or #5 starter, but those numbers are better than a #4 or #5 starter, so even though he is slotted there in the Cubs rotation I still feel he would be a legit 2 or 3 on other teams.

[TruffleShuffle]

Bump. Not interested in paying $9M in 2006 for Greg Maddux to pitch like Jeff Suppan.

[TruffleShuffle]

Hypothetically speaking - Maddux, over the last few years has been a much better pitcher in the second half of seasons. Let's say Maddux ends up going 16-8 with an ERA of 3.5 (those are about his averages over the last three years) Would he be worth the 9 million he is scheduled to make next year? In my opinion, yes. I know everyone is saying Maddux is our #4 or #5 starter, but those numbers are better than a #4 or #5 starter, so even though he is slotted there in the Cubs rotation I still feel he would be a legit 2 or 3 on other teams.

 

Maddux is not a legit 2 unless he's pitching for Kansas City or Tampa. 3.50 may be his average ERA over the last 3 years, but once this year is over his average 3-year ERA will probably be over 4.00. His ERA+ will barely be over 100. He rarely goes more than 6-7 innings in a game. Is that worth the $9M next year? Not even close, in my opinion, especially when you consider that given his age it's likely he'll be worse next year than he has been the last two years.