Cubs (Taillon) vs Reds (Spiers): 7/29/24, 6:10pm

[LBiittner]

Adbert alzolay has a setback in his rehab outing. Coming back to Chicago 

[CubinNY]

Well that got out hand quickly. 

[chopsx9]

21 hours ago, squally1313 said:

For whatever can help us in the next two years.

I see an argument that Hoerner is maybe redundant with Dansby, but paying him $12m for his age 28 and 29 years when he's 8th in 2B fWAR this year and 6th since last year doesn't seem high on the list of problems to address.

Nobody has said Hoerner is the problem.  Nobody.  You trade Hoerner because you think he has value not because you think he doesn't.  Nobody is trading for him if he doesn't have value.  There are limited other tradable assets - especially on the offensive side.  There are potential replacements in house - and - yes - shocker none them are a certainty.  Hoerner isn't even a certainty.  I personally believe we've seen the best of Hoerner.  I don't think he ages well.  I don't believe he's a player to extend to a long term deal.  This core isn't getting it done and something needs to change.  I'd probably rather trade Dansby but NOBODY is trading for him.  You're also not trading him for the sake of trading him - if you can't get something useful back then you keep him.  Simple.

[squally1313]

4 minutes ago, chopsx9 said:

Nobody has said Hoerner is the problem.  Nobody.  You trade Hoerner because you think he has value not because you think he doesn't.  Nobody is trading for him if he doesn't have value.  There are limited other tradable assets - especially on the offensive side.  There are potential replacements in house - and - yes - shocker none them are a certainty.  Hoerner isn't even a certainty.  I personally believe we've seen the best of Hoerner.  I don't think he ages well.  I don't believe he's a player to extend to a long term deal.  This core isn't getting it done and something needs to change.  I'd probably rather trade Dansby but NOBODY is trading for him.  You're also not trading him for the sake of trading him - if you can't get something useful back then you keep him.  Simple.

I'm getting very tired of this argument. The collective organization isn't performing up to par, so we should trade the productive pieces away. The team isn't getting it done because Chris Morel sucks at defense and isn't good enough offensively, the catchers are a dumpster fire, Cody Bellinger is down 140 OPS points (and defensive value. and baserunning value) from last year, and the bullpen fell apart. It's not Nico Hoerner on pace for another 3 win season. Removing what's pretty close to certain production that we are significantly underpaying for, without a long term commitment, to receive prospects, just creates another 2025 hole to fill. Where are we going to find 3 wins for $12m next year? 

People made this decision that Happ/Dansby/Nico are The Core and therefore responsible for the record being where it is. None of them are paid like studs, all of them are outperforming their contract either this year or in the aggregate. If you want to make trades for the sake of making trades and don't care about nuking your 2025 chances, then go get a haul for Steele. 

[chopsx9]

7 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

I'm getting very tired of this argument. The collective organization isn't performing up to par, so we should trade the productive pieces away. The team isn't getting it done because Chris Morel sucks at defense and isn't good enough offensively, the catchers are a dumpster fire, Cody Bellinger is down 140 OPS points (and defensive value. and baserunning value) from last year, and the bullpen fell apart. It's not Nico Hoerner on pace for another 3 win season. Removing what's pretty close to certain production that we are significantly underpaying for, without a long term commitment, to receive prospects, just creates another 2025 hole to fill. Where are we going to find 3 wins for $12m next year? 

People made this decision that Happ/Dansby/Nico are The Core and therefore responsible for the record being where it is. None of them are paid like studs, all of them are outperforming their contract either this year or in the aggregate. If you want to make trades for the sake of making trades and don't care about nuking your 2025 chances, then go get a haul for Steele. 

You trade the productive pieces because NOBODY WANTS  the unproductive pieces.  You can't improve your team by trading away Nick Madrigal.  Crappy players get released not traded.  The Cubs may very well ultimately regret trading away Morel but I tend to think it was good baseball trade.  Again you are not trading him for the sake of trading him - you are doing it to try and improve the team and if you don't think you can do that - you don't.

[CubinNY]

11 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

I'm getting very tired of this argument. The collective organization isn't performing up to par, so we should trade the productive pieces away. The team isn't getting it done because Chris Morel sucks at defense and isn't good enough offensively, the catchers are a dumpster fire, Cody Bellinger is down 140 OPS points (and defensive value. and baserunning value) from last year, and the bullpen fell apart. It's not Nico Hoerner on pace for another 3 win season. Removing what's pretty close to certain production that we are significantly underpaying for, without a long term commitment, to receive prospects, just creates another 2025 hole to fill. Where are we going to find 3 wins for $12m next year? 

People made this decision that Happ/Dansby/Nico are The Core and therefore responsible for the record being where it is. None of them are paid like studs, all of them are outperforming their contract either this year or in the aggregate. If you want to make trades for the sake of making trades and don't care about nuking your 2025 chances, then go get a haul for Steele. 

2nd base is easier to fill than catcher. The reasons to trade Nico are the same reasons you want to keep him, if that helps explain the reasoning. 

Nico for Teel!!

[squally1313]

5 minutes ago, chopsx9 said:

You trade the productive pieces because NOBODY WANTS  the unproductive pieces.  You can't improve your team by trading away Nick Madrigal.  Crappy players get released not traded.  The Cubs may very well ultimately regret trading away Morel but I tend to think it was good baseball trade.  Again you are not trading him for the sake of trading him - you are doing it to try and improve the team and if you don't think you can do that - you don't.

Then don't trade him. He's not an expiring contract. He has two more incredibly affordable years in his 20s. The guys in the system aren't ready. 'Something needs to change' sounds a ton like 'trading him for the sake of trading him'. 

Just because there's a trade deadline doesn't mean you have to make trades. 

[squally1313]

6 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

2nd base is easier to fill than catcher. The reasons to trade Nico are the same reasons you want to keep him, if that helps explain the reasoning. 

Nico for Teel!!

Is it? Who is our opening day second baseman next year? One of the two guys who haven't gotten to AAA yet? Top free agent second baseman is Gleyber Torres, who was worse than Nico last year, worse than him this year, six months older, and absolutely going to command more than $12m given that he's making $14m this year in arbitration. Or are we going some stop gap measure, a second base Eric Hosmer, and hoping on Shaw and Triantos? Resign David Bote? How does that help make us better next year? Teel won't be ready. 

[chopsx9]

12 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

Then don't trade him. He's not an expiring contract. He has two more incredibly affordable years in his 20s. The guys in the system aren't ready. 'Something needs to change' sounds a ton like 'trading him for the sake of trading him'. 

Just because there's a trade deadline doesn't mean you have to make trades. 

you're right - lets just run it back and click our ruby slippers together and hope for something to change.  Nobody - AGAIN - is saying you HAVE to trade him.

[squally1313]

Just now, chopsx9 said:

you're right - lets just run it back and click our ruby slippers together and hope for something to change.  Nobody - AGAIN - is saying you HAVE to trade him.

Not sure how your 2025 solution of 'trading a top 10 second baseman for prospects' is somehow better than 'running it back'.

But the fun thing is you don't have to blindly hope that something will change. We turned a big problem into what should be pretty solid production just a couple days ago. The $40+m coming off the books this year will also spur change we don't have to click any slippers for. The farm system we've been building up for the past couple years will continue to develop. We, in theory, won't be running a -1.4 fWAR at the catchers position (though I guess that's 'hoping').