Week 9 - Bears (3-5) @ Steelers (4-3) on MNF

[UMFan83]

More PFF stuff

 

[WrigleyField 22]

After doing some research I think I'm really coming onto Greg Roman as an option for the Bears HC. He seems to have the most diverse background. Lots of stops and worked with some great staffs, so he should have lots of connections to build a staff. Suits his scheme to his players. Not a system guy, I can't even tell if he comes from a "tree". Obviously he's done amazing work with Lamar and the Ravens O.

 

I think he'd be able to not just fix the O and finish developing Fields, but build a great top to bottom staff.

 

That last part of your last sentence gives him the edge for me right now. He has run a top 3 offense in 2 of the last 3 years. He has some ties to the Fangio defense. And the Ravens are simply the best run franchise in the sport right now. I trust him more to build a great staff than Daboll at this point.

 

The one thing I do worry about with Roman though is he puts a TON on his QB. I know the Ravens RB situation is a mess, but Lamar has almost twice as many carries as anyone else on that team. He had the most carries on the team last year when they had 3 legit and healthy backs.

I mean Daboll is probably still top 3 for me, or top 5 at worst.

 

Roughly speaking its probably

Roman

Daboll

Bowles

Morris

Toub

 

Those would be my top 5 if I was broadening it past just Offensive guys, which I think they should. Moore has some intrigue, but I do worry he's too green. Hackett has some intrigue. Pick another name out of the Shannahan/McVay hat if you're feeling trendy I guess, but I guess its no accident my top two offensive choicess are serving under D head coaches. There's zero doubt they are running their show currently.

[David]

[UMFan83]

 

You have me on ignore dont you?

[WrigleyField 22]

 

I know decisions certainly not made using logic at Halas Hall but I cant believe they would keep Pace. It's his 6th year and the team has holes all over, is cap strapped and little draft capital. It's great that he got Fields, but you need to take advantage of his rookie contract and the guy that wastes ridiculous amounts of resources is not the guy to do that.

 

One rumor going around is that the Bears move Pace up in a director of football operations type of position and potentially hire a GM from within underneath him (Champ Kelly is a popular name here). Part of me really likes this idea. The Bears do actually have a decent scouting department and Kelly is well respected around the league and probably gets some GM interviews this offseason. If the Bears clean house, he won't be jobless for long.

 

Part of me really likes this move. With all going on with a potential new stadium and all Pace has done for the off-field product (Halas Hall), I think some continuity could be a good thing. But also, wouldn't have him as the primary guy selecting his 3rd coach.

 

Is that a legit rumor? I saw someone on twitter talking about this but it was written as if it was an idea they had and not something that was actually rumored.

 

I know that the McCaskey family likes Pace a lot and I'll admit he's done a good bit to modernize the Bears football operations, but I just don't know how it changes anything if he's elevated. Does the new GM have full autonomy over the draft and player moves or would they be Jed to Ryan's Theo? At some point the Bears are going to need draft capital to build around Fields and I think Pace has done a poor job of using his resources efficiently. Because of that, it's hard to look at the Bears future and think that its in good hands with him running the show.

I don't gather they are hard rumors. More speculative connecting of dots.

 

But I just don't buy it as viable. And there are really several reasons why;

 

1. Practical concerns: The NFL is somewhat unique in that teams can block only their number1 FO or number 1 HC from being poached from other teams. Once you get to the number 2 level, you can't protect those guys from another teams number 1 role. So there's really no guarantee that a guy like Champ can't just be poached by another team. MLB and NBA have much broader authority to block current employees so the calculus is different - there really isn't definition of number 1 roles.

2. Beyond the practical issue, I think its the concern about not giving a guy proper autonomy. Pace (or some other "Pres of Football Ops") hanging over a GM just doesn't sound productive. And it probably makes future job evaluations even harder for George, IMO, as he has to parse out who's maximizing what between Pace, a GM, and a Head Coach. If anything they should consolidate roles and go the Patriots/Seahawks model where your HC is your top football person.

3. Pace really is just a football guy. Sometimes it's framed as Pace filling in for Ted's void, but they are in all honestly not related roles at all. If Pace was somehow filling Ted's shoes he'd be by far the least business credentialed President in the league. Its a business role. So I could see a scenario where Ted vacates the Pres role and stays as CEO of the team, while also be named CEO of the Arlington Park development where he focuses his time, but his replacement as president will be a business person, not a former GM type like Pace, or god forbid a former player with no FO or biz experience, as is often bandied about (tHeY ShoUlD hIRe MaNnInG aS pReS!)

 

At the end of the day, teams have 1 top football mind. And one top business role. Sometimes the owner fills one or both of these roles. But throwing around some titles really solves little to nothing.

 

Title aside you basically have 3 leadership models that any NFL franchise follows;

 

Owner is the principal business mind and heads football ops head (DAL, CIN)

Owner acts as primary business mind and hires a GM* to head the football ops (NE, LAC, LAR, TB, IND, PIT, NYG, MIN, ARI, SF, BUF,CAR)

Owner hires a CEO/Pres to run business ops and a GM* to head the football ops (CHI, BALT, ATL, KC, LALR, JAX, PHI, NO, MIA, DEN, DET, CLE, SEA, NYJ, TEN, WFT, TEX, LV)

*Again the case of Seattle and New England its the head coach, but there still isn't this extra hierarchy, there's less actually)

 

That's really about it, and "elevating" Pace doesn't change that. You have a few niche cases in Denver and Baltimore where long time, successful GMs were elevated to some senior role, but Pace isn't Elway or Newsome. Those are arguable quasi-retirement roles anyways. And Denver has the added challenge of going through the sale of the team through an estate, which may have played in as there's some leadership void there. Atlanta is another fringe case that has a former GM in the top business role, but he does actually have a law background that predates his time as a GM. Washington and Cleveland have somewhat unique structures, but still probably generally fall into the third setup above. Washington and Green Bay also do have former NFL players in that top business role, although in GBs case I really do think the business aspect was the primary factor. Washington's setup is a little less clear, though Wright still far exceeds Pace's business background. And well, I wouldn't want to use Washington as a model franchise either.

 

Beyond all that, Pace is really just an average GM to me. Whatever positives he has had on the franchise, just be grateful for them and move on. Maybe that means handing the reins over to someone internal to reduce turnover, but let's not complicate things by trying to justify an elevated Pace. Either keep him or move on.

[David]

 

You have me on ignore dont you?

 

lol mustve skipped page 8

[WrigleyField 22]

As a slight addendum, the only benefit I could see from a "Pace elevation" is not so much about changing any internal roles but that Pace/Kelly run future press conferences. Ted is an ornery dude and just comes off terrible. So it could be a pure play PR move.

 

I mockingly also suggested Gary Fencik for this fake President PR role and got Sulley all riled up on Twitter too, which was fun.

[raw]

As a slight addendum, the only benefit I could see from a "Pace elevation" is not so much about changing any internal roles but that Pace/Kelly run future press conferences. Ted is an ornery dude and just comes off terrible. So it could be a pure play PR move.

 

I mockingly also suggested Gary Fencik for this fake President PR role and got Sulley all riled up on Twitter too, which was fun.

 

I'll admit I don't know much about the president of football operations role but how does the potential move stuff apply? Seems like that would create a unique type of role to deal with all of that stuff.

[raw]

After doing some research I think I'm really coming onto Greg Roman as an option for the Bears HC. He seems to have the most diverse background. Lots of stops and worked with some great staffs, so he should have lots of connections to build a staff. Suits his scheme to his players. Not a system guy, I can't even tell if he comes from a "tree". Obviously he's done amazing work with Lamar and the Ravens O.

 

I think he'd be able to not just fix the O and finish developing Fields, but build a great top to bottom staff.

 

That last part of your last sentence gives him the edge for me right now. He has run a top 3 offense in 2 of the last 3 years. He has some ties to the Fangio defense. And the Ravens are simply the best run franchise in the sport right now. I trust him more to build a great staff than Daboll at this point.

 

The one thing I do worry about with Roman though is he puts a TON on his QB. I know the Ravens RB situation is a mess, but Lamar has almost twice as many carries as anyone else on that team. He had the most carries on the team last year when they had 3 legit and healthy backs.

I mean Daboll is probably still top 3 for me, or top 5 at worst.

 

Roughly speaking its probably

Roman

Daboll

Bowles

Morris

Toub

 

Those would be my top 5 if I was broadening it past just Offensive guys, which I think they should. Moore has some intrigue, but I do worry he's too green. Hackett has some intrigue. Pick another name out of the Shannahan/McVay hat if you're feeling trendy I guess, but I guess its no accident my top two offensive choicess are serving under D head coaches. There's zero doubt they are running their show currently.

 

Didn't mean to apply I don't like Daboll. Because he's probably a close 2nd to Roman right now, for me.

 

Roman

Daboll

Morris

Moore

Bowles

 

That would probably be my top 5. Kevin O'Connell (former NFL QB and current Rams OC) would be interesting, but he only has 2 years as OC and hasn't called plays. Not too worried about Moore being raw. I think if you're going for the next McVay, he's probably that guy. There's rumors than Shanahan could be gone if the Niners don't do anything this year. I'm not even a huge Shanahan guy, but I'd take him in a heartbeat.

[WrigleyField 22]

As a slight addendum, the only benefit I could see from a "Pace elevation" is not so much about changing any internal roles but that Pace/Kelly run future press conferences. Ted is an ornery dude and just comes off terrible. So it could be a pure play PR move.

 

I mockingly also suggested Gary Fencik for this fake President PR role and got Sulley all riled up on Twitter too, which was fun.

 

I'll admit I don't know much about the president of football operations role but how does the potential move stuff apply? Seems like that would create a unique type of role to deal with all of that stuff.

I mean I don't know for sure. They're going to have joint partners in the AP project so its not like Bears have to do it all on their own, but it probably is big enough that you could make a case for Phillips to focus more on that and elevate someone to oversee the rest of the teams/business operations, and some teams do have both a separate CEO and President role. Of course they could do the reverse and hire someone separate to oversee AP, but moving Phillips out of a front facing team role is such an easy PR win, might as well do it that way.

 

I've spent more time looking up NFL front offices than any sane person should, but I think Elway is really the only person with such a "Pres of Football Ops" title that sits above a GM. Many GMs often have a fancy VP title too, but at the end of the day, the point is there is generally one football guy in the building and he's the unquestioned head guy. And then there's a CEO or Pres role for every team. At the very least the Bears arent like uniquely incompetent and doing something wrong structure wise, which dumb fans often act like.

 

The CEO/Pres role is also damn near a Pope role. It's just an extension of ownership and its really not often changed based on football results, across the NFL. In my research I think I found only like two or three examples of a CEO/Pres getting their role from a firing. Most succeed another longtime Pres who retires. Or they change when ownership changes.

[WrigleyField 22]

Anyways here's my best attempt at some fantasy Bears restructuring that's probably still realistic based on the rest of the NFL landscape.

 

Leading up to week 14/15, fire Nagy and Pace. Announce that Cliff Stein will be named as President of the team and Ted Phillips will retain the CEO role as well as being named CEO of "Arlington Park Development LLC" which will focus on the Bears stadium project and development of the rest of the Arlington Park project. Champ Kelly as interim GM and whoever as interim HC, who cares. Ted can also announce a small team of proven sports execs who have been part of major stadium deals.

 

Further Cliff Stein and George McCaskey will work with a consultant to immediately begin the hiring process for both GM and HC. They can start interviewing Head Coach prospects the last two weeks this year. GM candidates they still have to wait on I think, though they could obviously start the search with any possible GM candidates who are not currently employed by an NFL team (Rick Smith? Thomas Dimitroff?). They could obviously also interview Champ Kelly as an internal candidate. Let's just say hypothetically they decide to hire Rick Smith and just for PR purposes give him the fancy title of Senior Vice President of Football Operations. He'd then be ready to go pretty early on in the hiring cycle and finish up the head coach search. He hires Greg Roman as soon as the Ravens are done with their playoff run. He retains a healthy amount of the former FO staff with a promotion for Champ Kelly to "General Manager". It won't be a true GM role that you can block him from other GM roles, but maybe one where he has slightly elevated responsibilities (Rick Smith is a retread GM and single father to 3 teenagers, so its slightly believable he might give Champ greater responsibility than a typical number 2 role, along with a nice raise to keep him content and not seeking other jobs). But it would ultimately still be Rick's vision and coach, as well as bringing in some of his own guys to replace/supplement Pace's old FO.

 

So you're left with Stein in Phillips old role (from a fan standpoint at least - we don't have to see his face anymore). And an experienced GM and hot internal GM candidate. From a practical perspective I don't think it makes a huge difference from the status quo (Smith is just Pace with a fancy title, and Champ is still Champ with a fancy title). But it kind of plays into some positive PR angles that sound like we're beefing up the football minds, as well as putting Phillips out of sight out of mind.

 

If you want to go for a little bit more meatball fan service, chose any well liked former Bear and name them as a Senior Special advisor to the Chairman. Heck, pick 2 or 3 of them. Just to give some feel that there's "football guys" with some input for George and Cliff.

[raw]

Anyways here's my best attempt at some fantasy Bears restructuring that's probably still realistic based on the rest of the NFL landscape.

 

Leading up to week 14/15, fire Nagy and Pace. Announce that Cliff Stein will be named as President of the team and Ted Phillips will retain the CEO role as well as being named CEO of "Arlington Park Development LLC" which will focus on the Bears stadium project and development of the rest of the Arlington Park project. Champ Kelly as interim GM and whoever as interim HC, who cares. Ted can also announce a small team of proven sports execs who have been part of major stadium deals.

 

Further Cliff Stein and George McCaskey will work with a consultant to immediately begin the hiring process for both GM and HC. They can start interviewing Head Coach prospects the last two weeks this year. GM candidates they still have to wait on I think, though they could obviously start the search with any possible GM candidates who are not currently employed by an NFL team (Rick Smith? Thomas Dimitroff?). They could obviously also interview Champ Kelly as an internal candidate. Let's just say hypothetically they decide to hire Rick Smith and just for PR purposes give him the fancy title of Senior Vice President of Football Operations. He'd then be ready to go pretty early on in the hiring cycle and finish up the head coach search. He hires Greg Roman as soon as the Ravens are done with their playoff run. He retains a healthy amount of the former FO staff with a promotion for Champ Kelly to "General Manager". It won't be a true GM role that you can block him from other GM roles, but maybe one where he has slightly elevated responsibilities (Rick Smith is a retread GM and single father to 3 teenagers, so its slightly believable he might give Champ greater responsibility than a typical number 2 role, along with a nice raise to keep him content and not seeking other jobs). But it would ultimately still be Rick's vision and coach, as well as bringing in some of his own guys to replace/supplement Pace's old FO.

 

So you're left with Stein in Phillips old role (from a fan standpoint at least - we don't have to see his face anymore). And an experienced GM and hot internal GM candidate. From a practical perspective I don't think it makes a huge difference from the status quo (Smith is just Pace with a fancy title, and Champ is still Champ with a fancy title). But it kind of plays into some positive PR angles that sound like we're beefing up the football minds, as well as putting Phillips out of sight out of mind.

 

If you want to go for a little bit more meatball fan service, chose any well liked former Bear and name them as a Senior Special advisor to the Chairman. Heck, pick 2 or 3 of them. Just to give some feel that there's "football guys" with some input for George and Cliff.

 

This all sounds good to me.

[pitchcs]

Not sure how you could hire Todd Bowles as HC.

 

Amazing defensive football mind, but not what's needed with this organization IMO

[UMFan83]

If you have 26 mins to spare. I did

 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It feels weird to let Pace and Nagy trade up to draft a QB in the first round, develop him for a year, then fire them after a year in which that QB developed well.

[minnesotacubsfan]

It feels weird to let Pace and Nagy trade up to draft a QB in the first round, develop him for a year, then fire them after a year in which that QB developed well.

#secretextensions

[David]

. Edited November 11, 2021 by David

[woodchip2153]

 

confirmed; David has UMFan on ignore

[WrigleyField 22]

 

confirmed; David has UMFan on ignore

Davids AI posting algo is just incorporating too many of Derwoods posts into its dataset.

[David]

damn it. i just saw it when i logged into youtube and came in here to post it.

 

i guess i'm too slow for this horsefeathers when umfan is locked in.

[raw]

Random but what’s the midseason take on James Daniels at RG? Is he getting to FA?

 

I think I talked about this before, but this is definitely the most interesting decision the Bears have this offseason. The Bears need to build a strong OL. Borom has shown enough in just 2 starts that he's got a spot for the near future. Jenkins has the draft status and pedigree that he's got a spot in the near future. Whitehair has the contract that says he's going to be here. That leaves Mustipher and Daniels as the only guys who can logically be replaced. Mustipher is bad. You can replace him with a better C, but the issue here is that you can't really draft a C to fill this spot. Daniels was supposed to be the C of the future, but couldn't handle certain things at the position. Mustipher is also young, so I don't think young C is going to be the answer. You can move Whitehair back to C and go out and get another guard, but the only thing that really moves the needle is a stud. Whitehair is what he is. Solid, not a stud. You can hold out hope that Jenkins and/or Borom becomes a stud. But what complicates things is Daniels is a FA.

 

Daniels isn't quite what he is, though he's probably never going to be a stud, pro bowl level OG. But he's also going to be literally the youngest FA in the league this offseason. And due to his age, solid performance the last 2 years when healthy, and still having a bit of upside; it makes this an either/or proposition. Either you sign Daniels OR you get a true stud on the OL. Probably can't afford both, unless you go really cheap at WR and get no CB help (remember no draft picks either).

 

Given that a couple studs in Cleveland just got taken off the market, combined with the fact that it's very few studs in general out there, I think you have to re-sign Daniels. The whole "bird in the hand". They'll probably have to develop a stud OL between the rookie OTs and any future draft picks on the interior, but that's probably the way to go.

[raw]

If you have 26 mins to spare. I did

 

 

A couple things I didn't agree with JT on.

 

1. He put part of the blame of that Watt unblocked sack on Fields. While he did blame the play design as well, he got on Fields for not getting vertical enough to run away from Watt and for him thinking he can just break the tackle. Sorry, but that was 100% on the design. You can't unblock a guy like Watt for one. The other issue is the other edge guy completely beat Montgomery and would have been there had Fields gotten vertical, which means a bigger loss of yardage.

 

2. The Mooney TD, he was going on about Fields should have been the one running the wildcat play instead of Montgomery. But the reason that play works is because you have a RB back there with a 165lb WR. They ran that play before and nobody thinks you're going to give the ball to a tiny speed WR when you have a bruising inside runner and are pulling linemen toward the other side. If you have Fields back there with a RB, the defense has to respect that either could run the ball.

[UMFan83]

If you have 26 mins to spare. I did

 

 

A couple things I didn't agree with JT on.

 

1. He put part of the blame of that Watt unblocked sack on Fields. While he did blame the play design as well, he got on Fields for not getting vertical enough to run away from Watt and for him thinking he can just break the tackle. Sorry, but that was 100% on the design. You can't unblock a guy like Watt for one. The other issue is the other edge guy completely beat Montgomery and would have been there had Fields gotten vertical, which means a bigger loss of yardage.

 

2. The Mooney TD, he was going on about Fields should have been the one running the wildcat play instead of Montgomery. But the reason that play works is because you have a RB back there with a 165lb WR. They ran that play before and nobody thinks you're going to give the ball to a tiny speed WR when you have a bruising inside runner and are pulling linemen toward the other side. If you have Fields back there with a RB, the defense has to respect that either could run the ball.

 

Agree with 1. For 2 I think that it was part of a larger complaint about the QB run plays the Bears are calling for Fields. I see what you are saying about that specific play but I think he was saying the Bears read option plays were very basic and low ceiling type of designs

[raw]

If you have 26 mins to spare. I did

 

 

A couple things I didn't agree with JT on.

 

1. He put part of the blame of that Watt unblocked sack on Fields. While he did blame the play design as well, he got on Fields for not getting vertical enough to run away from Watt and for him thinking he can just break the tackle. Sorry, but that was 100% on the design. You can't unblock a guy like Watt for one. The other issue is the other edge guy completely beat Montgomery and would have been there had Fields gotten vertical, which means a bigger loss of yardage.

 

2. The Mooney TD, he was going on about Fields should have been the one running the wildcat play instead of Montgomery. But the reason that play works is because you have a RB back there with a 165lb WR. They ran that play before and nobody thinks you're going to give the ball to a tiny speed WR when you have a bruising inside runner and are pulling linemen toward the other side. If you have Fields back there with a RB, the defense has to respect that either could run the ball.

 

Agree with 1. For 2 I think that it was part of a larger complaint about the QB run plays the Bears are calling for Fields. I see what you are saying about that specific play but I think he was saying the Bears read option plays were very basic and low ceiling type of designs

 

Yeah, that makes sense. I also thought of that fact that this is QB School, not offense school. He probably glossed over the other couple wildcat plays, which went to set up that TD run because they didn't have Fields at QB.

[David]

If you have 26 mins to spare. I did

 

 

A couple things I didn't agree with JT on.

 

1. He put part of the blame of that Watt unblocked sack on Fields. While he did blame the play design as well, he got on Fields for not getting vertical enough to run away from Watt and for him thinking he can just break the tackle. Sorry, but that was 100% on the design. You can't unblock a guy like Watt for one. The other issue is the other edge guy completely beat Montgomery and would have been there had Fields gotten vertical, which means a bigger loss of yardage.

 

Agreed that I felt like that was BS when he was explaining it. He probably felt like he had to come up with SOMETHING bad (other than missing that guy down the seam on the one he slightly overthrew to the outside guy (goodwin iirc?)).