The Greatest of All-Time

[Sammy Sofa]

At the time of Ali's greatest fame, China was very much closed to the outside world and a very large part of the population in India was still cut off. I'd guess that there are current athletes that are known by both a greater number of people and a greater percentage of the worlds population than Ali. Messi, for example, could be more well known at this point.

 

But that's a big part of the point; Ali ended up being as absurdly famous as he was around the world at a time when the world wasn't as connected as it would be later.

[Sammy Sofa]

that brings up the massive difference in the sports themselves. Boxing was huge at the time and Ali was the biggest name, but how many of his fights were truly global events? Maybe a half a dozen? Jordan had exponentially more games, and even if you just count things like series clinching games, his comeback, finals games, dunk contests and olympics, he was out there for world wide consumption far more often. I think Jordan competes simply on the globally famous question. He may not be as popular or beloved or respected, but those are different questions. But the dude is quite famous.

 

I don't know what tell you; I was out of the country for most of that, and it was definitely popular, but nowhere near that "holy [expletive], everyone stop what you're doing/did you see what Jordan did last night?" I mean, I'm obviously not arguing that Jordan wasn't global famous; he clearly was and is. Ali just was on a crazy different level. Yeah, that is hugely influenced by the difference in their sports and the eras they were at their peak; Jordan's arguably the reason that basketball started spreading globally like it has, whereas Ali benefited by being the greatest at a sport that was already cemented as a global phenomenon and was basically at its peak in popularity. Whatever the reasons, Ali somehow ended up on a level you usually just see for religious figures or world leaders.

 

I think it's really tough because we're judging it based on reports of folks (old sportswriters and reporters) that are inclined to glamorize Ali's fame too. I sure wasn't around to see any of Ali's fights.

 

I'm honestly surprised this even turned out to be such a contentious thing; I just assumed he was one of those rare figures everyone though was on another level of fame/global awareness.

[Tim]

At the time of Ali's greatest fame, China was very much closed to the outside world and a very large part of the population in India was still cut off. I'd guess that there are current athletes that are known by both a greater number of people and a greater percentage of the worlds population than Ali. Messi, for example, could be more well known at this point.

 

But that's a big part of the point; Ali ended up being as absurdly famous as he was around the world at a time when the world wasn't as connected as it would be later.

But "most famous" still means how many (or what % of) people know of the guy. I believe that Ali was known by a higher percentage of the connected people during his time than any athlete today. But there are SO many more connected people today (overall and as a %) that it is almost inevitable that the raw numbers will be higher for today's athletes.

[Banedon]

 

I don't know what tell you; I was out of the country for most of that, and it was definitely popular, but nowhere near that "holy [expletive], everyone stop what you're doing/did you see what Jordan did last night?" I mean, I'm obviously not arguing that Jordan wasn't global famous; he clearly was and is. Ali just was on a crazy different level. Yeah, that is hugely influenced by the difference in their sports and the eras they were at their peak; Jordan's arguably the reason that basketball started spreading globally like it has, whereas Ali benefited by being the greatest at a sport that was already cemented as a global phenomenon and was basically at its peak in popularity. Whatever the reasons, Ali somehow ended up on a level you usually just see for religious figures or world leaders.

 

I think it's really tough because we're judging it based on reports of folks (old sportswriters and reporters) that are inclined to glamorize Ali's fame too. I sure wasn't around to see any of Ali's fights.

 

I'm honestly surprised this even turned out to be such a contentious thing; I just assumed he was one of those rare figures everyone though was on another level of fame/global awareness.

 

It's impossible to objectively measure, and no matter your feelings toward MJ, most of us were around for that. It's hard to see MJ's level of fame and fathom someone being more internationally recognized.

[Tim]

 

I don't know what tell you; I was out of the country for most of that, and it was definitely popular, but nowhere near that "holy [expletive], everyone stop what you're doing/did you see what Jordan did last night?" I mean, I'm obviously not arguing that Jordan wasn't global famous; he clearly was and is. Ali just was on a crazy different level. Yeah, that is hugely influenced by the difference in their sports and the eras they were at their peak; Jordan's arguably the reason that basketball started spreading globally like it has, whereas Ali benefited by being the greatest at a sport that was already cemented as a global phenomenon and was basically at its peak in popularity. Whatever the reasons, Ali somehow ended up on a level you usually just see for religious figures or world leaders.

 

I think it's really tough because we're judging it based on reports of folks (old sportswriters and reporters) that are inclined to glamorize Ali's fame too. I sure wasn't around to see any of Ali's fights.

 

I'm honestly surprised this even turned out to be such a contentious thing; I just assumed he was one of those rare figures everyone though was on another level of fame/global awareness.

He is definitely "one of those". I just don't believe that he's on a level of his own. And I think the simple shift in connectivity across the world is a major cause of that. Ali was famous in a much different way than Jordan, Messi or other athletes. But simple statements about "most famous" miss the point with Ali.

[Brian707]

Ali was a global icon for the final 50 years of his life. I don't really see that as the case for MJ.

[Sammy Sofa]

At the time of Ali's greatest fame, China was very much closed to the outside world and a very large part of the population in India was still cut off. I'd guess that there are current athletes that are known by both a greater number of people and a greater percentage of the worlds population than Ali. Messi, for example, could be more well known at this point.

 

But that's a big part of the point; Ali ended up being as absurdly famous as he was around the world at a time when the world wasn't as connected as it would be later.

But "most famous" still means how many (or what % of) people know of the guy. I believe that Ali was known by a higher percentage of the connected people during his time than any athlete today. But there are SO many more connected people today (overall and as a %) that it is almost inevitable that the raw numbers will be higher for today's athletes.

 

Sure; if we're just going by basic awareness of someone's existence, then everyone from Kanye West to Donald Trump is technically more famous than basically anyone before the current era due to how the world is connected now, but so much of that is due to social media and pop culture saturation. Ali reached his level of fame around the world based on people who WANTED to know what he was doing and saying. So many more people had to work much harder to seek that out than nowadays. Like, I inexplicably know way more about Kim Kardashian and her family despite never actually seeking any of that information out. Ali, on the other hand, somehow reached religious figure-levels of fame and recognition at a time when a ton of people had to literally spread the word about him. It's bonkers. Post-Michael Jackson, I don't even know if we CAN see someone that famous again just based on how linked up we all are.

[Sammy Sofa]

 

I think it's really tough because we're judging it based on reports of folks (old sportswriters and reporters) that are inclined to glamorize Ali's fame too. I sure wasn't around to see any of Ali's fights.

 

I'm honestly surprised this even turned out to be such a contentious thing; I just assumed he was one of those rare figures everyone though was on another level of fame/global awareness.

 

It's impossible to objectively measure, and no matter your feelings toward MJ, most of us were around for that. It's hard to see MJ's level of fame and fathom someone being more internationally recognized.

 

And I honestly think that's coming from a standpoint of seeing Jordan's fame in America. Again, Jordan is globally famous, but I think some of the names brought up, like Tiger or Messi or Pele, seriously trump him along those lines. So much of Jordan's fame around the world is actually his brand's fame. I think a big part of that is, unlike those other figures (and Ali), Jordan never transcended his sport or his products. He was and is hugely famous for being amazing at basketball and his work as a pitchman, but that's "it." Some of it is because he didn't really try to be more than that, but Tiger didn't really either, but he had so much of thrust on him because of his heritage and because of what was seen as the historical nature of him breaking into and dominating the whitest and most traditional of the global sports.

[Banedon]

 

I'm honestly surprised this even turned out to be such a contentious thing; I just assumed he was one of those rare figures everyone though was on another level of fame/global awareness.

 

It's impossible to objectively measure, and no matter your feelings toward MJ, most of us were around for that. It's hard to see MJ's level of fame and fathom someone being more internationally recognized.

 

And I honestly think that's coming from a standpoint of seeing Jordan's fame in America. Again, Jordan is globally famous, but I think some of the names brought up, like Tiger or Messi or Pele, seriously trump him along those lines. So much of Jordan's fame around the world is actually his brand's fame. I think a big part of that is, unlike those other figures (and Ali), Jordan never transcended his sport or his products. He was and is hugely famous for being amazing at basketball and his work as a pitchman, but that's "it." Some of it is because he didn't really try to be more than that, but Tiger didn't really either, but he had so much of thrust on him because of his heritage and because of what was seen as the historical nature of him breaking into and dominating the whitest and most traditional of the global sports.

 

I think we're using different measures here. You're giving Ali extra "famous points" because of fame from his activism, which is fine...he was clearly famous for that. But then discounting Jordan for being famous because of his "brand". Which I guess is also fine, it's just why there's no consensus here. Are we measuring fame as a result of just sport? Or fame overall? I just don't think we're all "counting" the same things.

[Sammy Sofa]

 

It's impossible to objectively measure, and no matter your feelings toward MJ, most of us were around for that. It's hard to see MJ's level of fame and fathom someone being more internationally recognized.

 

And I honestly think that's coming from a standpoint of seeing Jordan's fame in America. Again, Jordan is globally famous, but I think some of the names brought up, like Tiger or Messi or Pele, seriously trump him along those lines. So much of Jordan's fame around the world is actually his brand's fame. I think a big part of that is, unlike those other figures (and Ali), Jordan never transcended his sport or his products. He was and is hugely famous for being amazing at basketball and his work as a pitchman, but that's "it." Some of it is because he didn't really try to be more than that, but Tiger didn't really either, but he had so much of thrust on him because of his heritage and because of what was seen as the historical nature of him breaking into and dominating the whitest and most traditional of the global sports.

 

I think we're using different measures here. You're giving Ali extra "famous points" because of fame from his activism, which is fine...he was clearly famous for that. But then discounting Jordan for being famous because of his "brand". Which I guess is also fine, it's just why there's no consensus here. Are we measuring fame as a result of just sport? Or fame overall? I just don't think we're all "counting" the same things.

 

I thought it was obvious there's no kind of hard metric anyone is using here; it's just the nebulous notion of whatever "crazy globally famous on a level only a handful of people ever reach" is. To me, Jordan is too tied to his products and to his sport to be on Ali's level; Ali transcended his sport to a point where he was basically just famous for being Muhammed Ali. If Jordan transcended the sport that made him famous, it really just seems to be in a marketing sense. Maybe it's not fair that I'm lending more weight to someone who become more famous than their sport because of things beyond athletics and marketing, but hey, that's what I'm doing. To me, Jordan is too inexorably linked to the global rise of Nike to look at his global fame as simply the result of Michael Jordan: the greatest basketball player ever. His sport simply wasn't THAT globally famous at that point, and Nike went whole hog into making themselves and him a global brand. In the end, yeah, he ended up being hugely famous because of his talent and because of the products he endorsed, but ultimately that was his ceiling, gigantic as it was. Ali somehow got beyond that.

 

I look at Jordan as kind of reverse Pele, from an American standpoint. Pele was definitely famous in America, but obviously nowhere near what he was elsewhere in the world. Jordan was famous around the world, but nowhere near the heights he hit in America. We can't help but see Jordan as this all-encompassing figure because of how much we lived and breathed everything he did, but that really was the exception compared to the rest of the world. Subtract Nike from the picture and I think it's suddenly a hugely different picture as to how famous Jordan was globally. Sure, that sounds a lot like "subtract player x's best games and they're not so great," but with Nike I think it's genuinely questionable whether the man or the product was more famous.

[CubinNY]

Ali was a global icon who transcended his sport and was a hero to billions of people who never saw him fight for who he was and what he stood for. No one can touch that and it's not even up for debate.

 

People might wear Jordan shirts or Nikes, but those are fashion statements based on marketing. I don't think many around the world knew who name and he didn't stand for anything but making money. His image is world famous, he is not at a level that approaches Ali.

[jersey cubs fan]

Ali was a global icon who transcended his sport and was a hero to billions of people who never saw him fight for who he was and what he stood for. No one can touch that and it's not even up for debate.

 

People might wear Jordan shirts or Nikes, but those are fashion statements based on marketing. I don't think many around the world knew who name and he didn't stand for anything but making money. His image is world famous, he is not at a level that approaches Ali.

Fine, but you aren't talking about fame here. The question was about how famous they were. Not culturally meaningful.

[imb]

 

And I honestly think that's coming from a standpoint of seeing Jordan's fame in America. Again, Jordan is globally famous, but I think some of the names brought up, like Tiger or Messi or Pele, seriously trump him along those lines. So much of Jordan's fame around the world is actually his brand's fame. I think a big part of that is, unlike those other figures (and Ali), Jordan never transcended his sport or his products. He was and is hugely famous for being amazing at basketball and his work as a pitchman, but that's "it." Some of it is because he didn't really try to be more than that, but Tiger didn't really either, but he had so much of thrust on him because of his heritage and because of what was seen as the historical nature of him breaking into and dominating the whitest and most traditional of the global sports.

 

I think we're using different measures here. You're giving Ali extra "famous points" because of fame from his activism, which is fine...he was clearly famous for that. But then discounting Jordan for being famous because of his "brand". Which I guess is also fine, it's just why there's no consensus here. Are we measuring fame as a result of just sport? Or fame overall? I just don't think we're all "counting" the same things.

 

I thought it was obvious there's no kind of hard metric anyone is using here; it's just the nebulous notion of whatever "crazy globally famous on a level only a handful of people ever reach" is. To me, Jordan is too tied to his products and to his sport to be on Ali's level; Ali transcended his sport to a point where he was basically just famous for being Muhammed Ali. If Jordan transcended the sport that made him famous, it really just seems to be in a marketing sense. Maybe it's not fair that I'm lending more weight to someone who become more famous than their sport because of things beyond athletics and marketing, but hey, that's what I'm doing. To me, Jordan is too inexorably linked to the global rise of Nike to look at his global fame as simply the result of Michael Jordan: the greatest basketball player ever. His sport simply wasn't THAT globally famous at that point, and Nike went whole hog into making themselves and him a global brand. In the end, yeah, he ended up being hugely famous because of his talent and because of the products he endorsed, but ultimately that was his ceiling, gigantic as it was. Ali somehow got beyond that.

 

I look at Jordan as kind of reverse Pele, from an American standpoint. Pele was definitely famous in America, but obviously nowhere near what he was elsewhere in the world. Jordan was famous around the world, but nowhere near the heights he hit in America. We can't help but see Jordan as this all-encompassing figure because of how much we lived and breathed everything he did, but that really was the exception compared to the rest of the world. Subtract Nike from the picture and I think it's suddenly a hugely different picture as to how famous Jordan was globally. Sure, that sounds a lot like "subtract player x's best games and they're not so great," but with Nike I think it's genuinely questionable whether the man or the product was more famous.

 

oh my god, stop talking

[Sammy Sofa]

http://i.giphy.com/R55sOeBR22ogg.gif

[Banedon]

[WrigleyField 22]

Is it safe to say Ali and Jordan were equally famous (basically name recognition, even popularity), but that Ali was more universally adored? And call this debate over.

[Sammy Sofa]

Is it safe to say Ali and Jordan were equally famous (basically name recognition, even popularity), but that Ali was more universally adored? And call this debate over.

 

Ali is history book-famous; Jordan is Grays Sports Almanac-famous?