Baez impresses Baez

[Cubswin11]

Also, the solution to at least the OF logjam would be to trade Soler.

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

If Fowler stays, it's a thing with Schwarber's return. Getting Bryant, Zobrist, Baez, Contreras and Schwarber all in the same lineup would be extremely difficult. And that's not including Soler either.

 

It definitely gets easier if Fowler is gone and Heyward is in CF.

No it won't. It wasn't a problem going into the year last year and it won't be this next year. They are probably going to be careful with Schwarber making sure he gets ample rest and sits vs some LHP and he probably won't catch a ton if at all, Contreras will be a catcher only, Baez still will need to be protected vs RHP, Heyward is gonna have to show offensive improvement or be at risk of losing starts, Soler has things to prove and like Javy shouldn't just be given starts, Bryant is getting 155+ starts so you don't need to worry about him getting starts, christ, and Zobrist is another year older so it's probably good to limit him to 130-140 games or so. Throw in regression or an injury(s) and it won't be a problem other than in articles written about us in the offseason to make it a thing.

 

Depth is good and maybe part of the reason we are so awesome is we are able to have guys get extra rest and replace them with an equally awesome player, instead of league average or worse players so many teams have on their bench as replacements and forcing their starters to play in 155+ games when they shouldn't be because the alternatives are the Darwin Barney's, Scooter Gennet's, Melvin Uptons, Alexi Ramirez's, etc of the world.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Cubswin11

[USSoccer]

Also, the solution to at least the OF logjam would be to trade Soler.

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

[Cubswin11]

Also, the solution to at least the OF logjam would be to trade Soler.

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

[CyHawk_Cub]

When asked about being booed at AT&T, being thrown up & in by Strickland and being yapped at by Romo:

 

If you’re tripping because I took a little time coming out of the (batter’s) box, if you’re talking trash to me, if you want to boo me, I don’t care. I have a clear mind. It’s only because I’m doing damage.

 

:blush: :blush: :blush:

[squally1313]

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

I know this is sidetracking the discussion, and I know pitching is stupid, but at some point we're going to have to figure out what the 2018 rotation is, because right now it's 34 year old Lester, Hendricks, and...Montgomery? Yes, maybe we can just count on Theo signing the Lackey's and Hammels of the year to two year deals for forever, but this phenomenal defense was complimented by a very strong pitching staff that I assume we want to maintain going forward.

 

I know the idea of a 4 WAR logjam in the field is amazing, and it's not a 'problem'. It's an opportunity. Pitching is dumb, and paying a big price for pitching is even dumber. But we're going to need some of it soon.

[USSoccer]

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

We'd be trading him because he's an attractive asset and sooner or later we're going to need another starting pitcher. Given what we have, and given what Soler's shown and not shown, he's the most expendable of that group.

[Cubswin11]

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

I know this is sidetracking the discussion, and I know pitching is stupid, but at some point we're going to have to figure out what the 2018 rotation is, because right now it's 34 year old Lester, Hendricks, and...Montgomery? Yes, maybe we can just count on Theo signing the Lackey's and Hammels of the year to two year deals for forever, but this phenomenal defense was complimented by a very strong pitching staff that I assume we want to maintain going forward.

 

I know the idea of a 4 WAR logjam in the field is amazing, and it's not a 'problem'. It's an opportunity. Pitching is dumb, and paying a big price for pitching is even dumber. But we're going to need some of it soon.

2018 is so far away in terms of pitching with how fungible it is, it's silly to worry about it because it's a constantly moving target, who knows what happens to what we have both currently in the majors and minors and what pitchers across the league emerge/get hurt. On top of that Soler isn't bringing in that pitcher we want right now with where his value is and if I had to guess I bet we'd be underwhelmed on what Javy alone would bring back as a return.

[davell]

That's not really a thing, especially if Fowler leaves. Even if he stays there's enough PAs/platoon situations to take advantage of.

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

I asked Longenhagen in a chat on Soler's value. He equated it to around the equivalent of a top 75 prospect. If we keep Dex, we've got enough depth.

 

Grabbing a top 75ish prospect, or a pitcher that's came up and has lost a bit of value(but still has upside) seems like a good idea to me. We very well may STILL be selling at the highest point possible. Because injuries and his lack of D are not likely to be changing.

 

We're obviously in a great spot with depth and its not a necessity to deal him. But if that's the expected type of return-I think its good enough to pull the trigger personally.

[Sammy Sofa]

Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

You say this like there's this huge gulf between Soler and a player like Szczur in terms of production value/reliability.

[Cubswin11]

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

We'd be trading him because he's an attractive asset and sooner or later we're going to need another starting pitcher. Given what we have, and given what Soler's shown and not shown, he's the most expendable of that group.

What do you think his value is right now? Because to me his value is find a AA pitcher who isn't a big prospect hope you get lucky on his development or you have to take a gamble on a guy who's working back from injury.

[David]

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

We'd be trading him because he's an attractive asset and sooner or later we're going to need another starting pitcher. Given what we have, and given what Soler's shown and not shown, he's the most expendable of that group.

What do you think his value is right now? Because to me his value is find a AA pitcher who isn't a big prospect hope you get lucky on his development or you have to take a gamble on a guy who's working back from injury.

 

Yep.

[squally1313]

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

I know this is sidetracking the discussion, and I know pitching is stupid, but at some point we're going to have to figure out what the 2018 rotation is, because right now it's 34 year old Lester, Hendricks, and...Montgomery? Yes, maybe we can just count on Theo signing the Lackey's and Hammels of the year to two year deals for forever, but this phenomenal defense was complimented by a very strong pitching staff that I assume we want to maintain going forward.

 

I know the idea of a 4 WAR logjam in the field is amazing, and it's not a 'problem'. It's an opportunity. Pitching is dumb, and paying a big price for pitching is even dumber. But we're going to need some of it soon.

2018 is so far away in terms of pitching with how fungible it is, it's silly to worry about it because it's a constantly moving target, who knows what happens to what we have both currently in the majors and minors and what pitchers across the league emerge/get hurt. On top of that Soler isn't bringing in that pitcher we want right now with where his value is and if I had to guess I bet we'd be underwhelmed on what Javy alone would bring back as a return.

Well then, I guess, what's the plan there? The free agent market for starting pitching the next two years is brutal, unless we want to splurge on Darvish or hope Otani comes over. Right now there isn't a single arm in the minor leagues I'd count on to be a starter for the Cubs in the next two years. We're going to have to bring in reinforcements, probably even for next year, because there's just no one behind Montgomery/Rob Z who can help out behind our top 4.

 

This is very Cubs of me to be worried about this right now. Baez will probably just teach himself to pitch in the offseason.

[Cubswin11]

Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

You say this like there's this huge gulf between Soler and a player like Szczur in terms of production value/reliability.

To me there is when he's a depth/bench piece. I'd rather have the guy taking up the last spot on the bench have upside than a league averagish dude who you can easily find 10 of over the course of the year through your system/trades/FAs.

[David]

 

We would have Schwarber/Zobrist/Bryant for left, assuming Contreras is mostly catching. Fowler/Almora in CF. Heyward in RF.

 

Why do we need to keep him?

Depth/protection against injury, to face LHP and because we can? Why trade him just because? He's not bringing anything but a nominal return so keep him and let baseball figure itself out. Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

I asked Longenhagen in a chat on Soler's value. He equated it to around the equivalent of a top 75 prospect. If we keep Dex, we've got enough depth.

 

Grabbing a top 75ish prospect, or a pitcher that's came up and has lost a bit of value(but still has upside) seems like a good idea to me. We very well may STILL be selling at the highest point possible. Because injuries and his lack of D are not likely to be changing.

 

We're obviously in a great spot with depth and its not a necessity to deal him. But if that's the expected type of return-I think its good enough to pull the trigger personally.

 

No, thanks. I'd still bet on Soler having a more productive career than a 75 ranked pitching prospect.

 

The FO will figure out the pitching, especially with the defense we have. Young pitching is still being overvalued. Give me all the bats. The depth is an extremely important part of why we're so good.

 

Did anyone honestly expect a (solid) rotation made up of Lester, Hendricks, Arrieta, Lackey, and Hammel to be historically good at run prevention with a down year from Arrieta? The combination of this defense, the coaches, and this FO are magic.

[Cubswin11]

 

I know this is sidetracking the discussion, and I know pitching is stupid, but at some point we're going to have to figure out what the 2018 rotation is, because right now it's 34 year old Lester, Hendricks, and...Montgomery? Yes, maybe we can just count on Theo signing the Lackey's and Hammels of the year to two year deals for forever, but this phenomenal defense was complimented by a very strong pitching staff that I assume we want to maintain going forward.

 

I know the idea of a 4 WAR logjam in the field is amazing, and it's not a 'problem'. It's an opportunity. Pitching is dumb, and paying a big price for pitching is even dumber. But we're going to need some of it soon.

2018 is so far away in terms of pitching with how fungible it is, it's silly to worry about it because it's a constantly moving target, who knows what happens to what we have both currently in the majors and minors and what pitchers across the league emerge/get hurt. On top of that Soler isn't bringing in that pitcher we want right now with where his value is and if I had to guess I bet we'd be underwhelmed on what Javy alone would bring back as a return.

Well then, I guess, what's the plan there? The free agent market for starting pitching the next two years is brutal, unless we want to splurge on Darvish or hope Otani comes over. Right now there isn't a single arm in the minor leagues I'd count on to be a starter for the Cubs in the next two years. We're going to have to bring in reinforcements, probably even for next year, because there's just no one behind Montgomery/Rob Z who can help out behind our top 4.

 

This is very Cubs of me to be worried about this right now. Baez will probably just teach himself to pitch in the offseason.

Well the plan certainly isn't selling short on position player assets and acquiring shitty AA pitchers or pitchers who are already hurt and hoping we get lucky because OMG pitching. Look at how quick things turned on the Mets this year. Let things play out and don't force moves because of a perceived problem maybe in the future.

 

This shouldn't mean not acquiring any pitching, obviously we need it, but the FO has shown creative ways to get it without giving up significant players for it and hamstringing us on future moves. Use money on it when you have to and find cheap ways to acquire guys through trades that they think our coaches/development can work magic on. I'd rather find and acquire 10 Mike Montgomery's with ancillary minor league players to throw the pitching dice with than trade for what we think is 1 premium minor league/controlled pitcher with Soler or Baez.

 

If you want to trade Soler for pitching now, I hope you enjoy Nick Tropeano and his rehabbing elbow from TJS because that's what you are ending up with.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

you people have sullied this fine shrine. shame.

[Sammy Sofa]

Or do you just want the Szczur's of the world taking up bench spots?

 

You say this like there's this huge gulf between Soler and a player like Szczur in terms of production value/reliability.

To me there is when he's a depth/bench piece. I'd rather have the guy taking up the last spot on the bench have upside than a league averagish dude who you can easily find 10 of over the course of the year through your system/trades/FAs.

 

At some point he's going to have to just show he can even be consistently available to play, much less a useful baseball player. Ultimately it's looking more and more like having Soler or some random dude on the bench isn't really that big a difference, or at all.

[Cubswin11]

 

You say this like there's this huge gulf between Soler and a player like Szczur in terms of production value/reliability.

To me there is when he's a depth/bench piece. I'd rather have the guy taking up the last spot on the bench have upside than a league averagish dude who you can easily find 10 of over the course of the year through your system/trades/FAs.

 

At some point he's going to have to just show he can even be consistently available to play, much less a useful baseball player. Ultimately it's looking more and more like having Soler or some random dude on the bench isn't really that big a difference, or at all.

100% agree, but our amazing depth allows us to keep waiting/rolling the dice with a roster spot on him hoping the upside hits without really needing to rely on him. On a much more mortal team, sure you probably want the Szczur's of the world because he's actually going to have to play and you want to lock in some league average production and he's a slightly better known quantity instead of having the guy with the higher bust chance. But we aren't a mortal team so we can do things that traditionally teams haven't been able to risk doing.

[Agony and Ivy]

Didn't we literally just go through this with the too many shortstops and too many outfielders? OMG HOW WILL EVERYONE GET AT BATS?!?! Then Schwarber's knee died and having that depth didn't suck at all. This isn't a front office that is going to trade just because talking heads and analysts like Cameron don't know where the playing time will come from.

 

And they're definitely not going to trade a guy making $3m, $4m, $4m, $4m for some shitty lotto ticket pitcher while bench bats cost $5m a year now. Soler produced 0.7 fWAR this year in 264 PA's which means you don't even have to do mental gymnastics to know that at his $3m salary he offered surplus production. His BB% was up considerably and his K% was down 5 points. Those are good signs for a guy getting ready to enter his age 25 season with 4 years of control left and it's also why he's projected at 1.2 WAR next year. What he's shown and his potential upside (I still believe in it) is worth more in actual value than any top 75 horsefeathers kicking pitcher.

[Sammy Sofa]

Right, but what I'm saying is I'd rather just cut to the chase and have the guy on the roster already as opposed to just waiting to bring him up for the months Soler will be missing each season. I'm not worried about leaving a spot open for him when they can just have someone you can actually use to play defense and won't be breaking down on the regular. It's easy to find room for him; I just think they might as well look elsewhere since he's such a ridiculously limited player who basically just exists for pinch hitting and DH games.

[Tim]

As a reminder, at one point this season, we had to give Ryan Kalish actual MLB at bats.

[davell]

Didn't we literally just go through this with the too many shortstops and too many outfielders? OMG HOW WILL EVERYONE GET AT BATS?!?! Then Schwarber's knee died and having that depth didn't suck at all. This isn't a front office that is going to trade just because talking heads and analysts like Cameron don't know where the playing time will come from.

 

And they're definitely not going to trade a guy making $3m, $4m, $4m, $4m for some horsefeathers lotto ticket pitcher while bench bats cost $5m a year now. Soler produced 0.7 fWAR this year in 264 PA's which means you don't even have to do mental gymnastics to know that at his $3m salary he offered surplus production. His BB% was up considerably and his K% was down 5 points. Those are good signs for a guy getting ready to enter his age 25 season with 4 years of control left and it's also why he's projected at 1.2 WAR next year. What he's shown and his potential upside (I still believe in it) is worth more in actual value than any top 75 horsefeathers kicking pitcher.

 

Are his constant injuries and his health good signs too? We don't HAVE to trade him. But that's not bad value(and it doesn't need to be a prospect, just that value equivalent) If we keep Dex, its not a horrible idea to look at the pitching he can net.

 

If Candelario nets us the same, fine, look at moving him. But, looking at moving Soler isn't ridiculous at all. He's not very important to us, if we keep Dex.

[davell]

As a reminder, at one point this season, we had to give Ryan Kalish actual MLB at bats.

 

I'm actually relatively confident a guy like Zagunis can give us relatively decent AB's next year, if we needed him to. Wouldn't shock me if Candelario gets some Of reps this winter either.

[Agony and Ivy]

Didn't we literally just go through this with the too many shortstops and too many outfielders? OMG HOW WILL EVERYONE GET AT BATS?!?! Then Schwarber's knee died and having that depth didn't suck at all. This isn't a front office that is going to trade just because talking heads and analysts like Cameron don't know where the playing time will come from.

 

And they're definitely not going to trade a guy making $3m, $4m, $4m, $4m for some horsefeathers lotto ticket pitcher while bench bats cost $5m a year now. Soler produced 0.7 fWAR this year in 264 PA's which means you don't even have to do mental gymnastics to know that at his $3m salary he offered surplus production. His BB% was up considerably and his K% was down 5 points. Those are good signs for a guy getting ready to enter his age 25 season with 4 years of control left and it's also why he's projected at 1.2 WAR next year. What he's shown and his potential upside (I still believe in it) is worth more in actual value than any top 75 horsefeathers kicking pitcher.

 

Are his constant injuries and his health good signs too? We don't HAVE to trade him. But that's not bad value(and it doesn't need to be a prospect, just that value equivalent) If we keep Dex, its not a horrible idea to look at the pitching he can net.

 

If Candelario nets us the same, fine, look at moving him. But, looking at moving Soler isn't ridiculous at all. He's not very important to us, if we keep Dex.

 

Even if he misses 80 games every year (like he did this year) he's still a surplus value for the next 4 years. You won't get that back in trade so yes it's stupid to trade him just because you can. That's why people who win the lottery go broke quickly.

[jersey cubs fan]

why do people insist on saying soler is valuable to the cubs but he cannot bring back value in a trade?