Baseball History Thread

[We Got The Whole 9]

Cool ass video. Thanks for posting.

[NewUserName]

So, check out Ripken at the bottom of this AL MVP race…just chilling out with a 10 WAR in 27th place.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1984.shtml#all_AL_MVP_voting

 

He was widely considered a poor SS because he "lacked range" Sports writers were talking about how he needed to move to 3b from the get go. Oh how the way the game is watched has changed

[SophyQ]

Baseball advertising trade cards of late 19th Century

[OleMissCub]

Just when on a clicking expedition on BR to see who the most undeserving MVP of all time was. I looked at the winners WAR compared to the rest of the league that year.

 

Your winner:

 

Don Baylor - 1979 - 3.7 WAR, which ranked

 

AL overall: 45th

AL hitters: 31st

 

True winner that year (according to WAR): Fred Lynn - 8.9

 

(very close) Runner up:

 

Juan Gonzalez - 1996 - 3.8 WAR

 

AL overall: 44th

AL hitters: 31st

 

True winner that year: Griffey - 9.7

 

Years where the WAR leaders actually won MVP:

 

 

21 - Ohtani - 9.0

19 - Bellinger - 8.6

18 - Betts - 10.7

16 - Trout - 10.5

16 - Bryant - 7.3

15 - Harper - 9.7

14 - Kershaw - 8.2

12 - Posey - 7.6

11 - Verlander - 8.6

10 - Hamilton - 8.7

09 - Pujols - 9.7

08 - Pujols - 9.2

07 - A-Rod - 9.4

05 - Pujols - 8.4

05 - A-Rod - 9.4

04 - Bonds - 10.6

03 - Bonds - 9.2

03 - A-Rod - 8.4

02 - Bonds - 11.8

01 - Bonds - 11.9

97 - Walker - 9.8

91 - Ripken - 11.5

90 - Bonds - 9.7

84 - Sandberg - 8.6

83 - Ripken - 8.2

82 - Yount - 10.6

81 - Schmidt - 7.7

80 - Brett - 9.4

77 - Carew - 9.7

76 - Morgan - 9.6

75 - Morgan - 11.0

68 - Gibson - 11.9

67 - Yaz - 12.5

65 - Mays - 11.2

60 - Maris - 7.5

59 - Banks - 10.2

57 - Mantle - 11.3

56 - Mantle - 11.2

54 - Mays - 10.5

53 - Rosen - 10.2

52 - Shantz - 9.2

49 - Williams - 9.0

49 - Robinson - 9.3

48 - Boudreau - 10.4

48 - Musial - 11.3

46 - Williams - 10.6

46 - Musial - 9.3

45 - Newhouser - 12.2

43 - Musial - 9.6

42 - Cooper - 8.3

39 - Walters - 9.8

38 - Foxx - 7.5

37 - Medwick - 8.5

36 - Hubbell - 10.0

34 - Dean - 9.5

33 - Foxx - 9.0

33 - Hubbell - 9.0

32 - Foxx - 10.4

29 - Hornsby - 10.5

25 - Hornsby - 10.3

23 - Ruth - 14.2

13 - Walter Johnson - 16.5

11 - Cobb - 10.7

 

[Derwood]

Just when on a clicking expedition on BR to see who the most undeserving MVP of all time was. I looked at the winners WAR compared to the rest of the league that year.

 

Your winner:

 

Don Baylor - 1979 - 3.7 WAR, which ranked

 

AL overall: 45th

AL hitters: 31st

 

True winner that year (according to WAR): Fred Lynn - 8.9

 

(very close) Runner up:

 

Juan Gonzalez - 1996 - 3.8 WAR

 

AL overall: 44th

AL hitters: 31st

 

True winner that year: Griffey - 9.7

 

Years where the WAR leaders actually won MVP:

 

 

21 - Ohtani - 9.0

19 - Bellinger - 8.6

18 - Betts - 10.7

16 - Trout - 10.5

16 - Bryant - 7.3

15 - Harper - 9.7

14 - Kershaw - 8.2

12 - Posey - 7.6

11 - Verlander - 8.6

10 - Hamilton - 8.7

09 - Pujols - 9.7

08 - Pujols - 9.2

07 - A-Rod - 9.4

05 - Pujols - 8.4

05 - A-Rod - 9.4

04 - Bonds - 10.6

03 - Bonds - 9.2

03 - A-Rod - 8.4

02 - Bonds - 11.8

01 - Bonds - 11.9

97 - Walker - 9.8

91 - Ripken - 11.5

90 - Bonds - 9.7

84 - Sandberg - 8.6

83 - Ripken - 8.2

82 - Yount - 10.6

81 - Schmidt - 7.7

80 - Brett - 9.4

77 - Carew - 9.7

76 - Morgan - 9.6

75 - Morgan - 11.0

68 - Gibson - 11.9

67 - Yaz - 12.5

65 - Mays - 11.2

60 - Maris - 7.5

59 - Banks - 10.2

57 - Mantle - 11.3

56 - Mantle - 11.2

54 - Mays - 10.5

53 - Rosen - 10.2

52 - Shantz - 9.2

49 - Williams - 9.0

49 - Robinson - 9.3

48 - Boudreau - 10.4

48 - Musial - 11.3

46 - Williams - 10.6

46 - Musial - 9.3

45 - Newhouser - 12.2

43 - Musial - 9.6

42 - Cooper - 8.3

39 - Walters - 9.8

38 - Foxx - 7.5

37 - Medwick - 8.5

36 - Hubbell - 10.0

34 - Dean - 9.5

33 - Foxx - 9.0

33 - Hubbell - 9.0

32 - Foxx - 10.4

29 - Hornsby - 10.5

25 - Hornsby - 10.3

23 - Ruth - 14.2

13 - Walter Johnson - 16.5

11 - Cobb - 10.7

 

Interesting stuff, though I think most folks on here prefer fWAR to bWAR. Not sure that changes much of the analysis, though

[OleMissCub]

Interesting stuff, though I think most folks on here prefer fWAR to bWAR. Not sure that changes much of the analysis, though

 

fWAR has Baylor at 3.6 WAR and 24th in AL among hitters

 

With Juan Gone it's 3.5 fWAR and 31st in AL among hitters.

 

Going through the MVP stuff, I had to figure that baseball writers must have just hated Ruth. He led all of MLB in WAR 10 times yet only received MVP votes in 3 seasons. Compare that to Gehrig who got MVP votes 11 times.

[soccer10k]

Interesting stuff, though I think most folks on here prefer fWAR to bWAR. Not sure that changes much of the analysis, though

 

fWAR has Baylor at 3.6 WAR and 24th in AL among hitters

 

With Juan Gone it's 3.5 fWAR and 31st in AL among hitters.

 

Going through the MVP stuff, I had to figure that baseball writers must have just hated Ruth. He led all of MLB in WAR 10 times yet only received MVP votes in 3 seasons. Compare that to Gehrig who got MVP votes 11 times.

 

Mays only winning 2 MVPs is awful also.

[sweetpeteman]

Interesting stuff, though I think most folks on here prefer fWAR to bWAR. Not sure that changes much of the analysis, though

 

fWAR has Baylor at 3.6 WAR and 24th in AL among hitters

 

With Juan Gone it's 3.5 fWAR and 31st in AL among hitters.

 

Going through the MVP stuff, I had to figure that baseball writers must have just hated Ruth. He led all of MLB in WAR 10 times yet only received MVP votes in 3 seasons. Compare that to Gehrig who got MVP votes 11 times.

 

 

Maybe, but from 22 to 28 it was a different award with weird rules that led to Ruth only winning once (prior winners were apparently ineligible). By the time the BBWAA MVP award came into existance in 1931, Ruth was at the end of his career, (but probably should've won in 31 and should've received votes in 33)

[OleMissCub]

 

Mays only winning 2 MVPs is awful also.

 

Well, at least Mays got votes. He was top 6 in MVP voting 12 times. So it's not like he was being disrespected.

 

Let's go through the seasons where he got MVP votes:

 

1954 - MVP - 1st in WAR (10.5)

1955 - 4th in voting - 1st in WAR (9.1) - Campy won it with a 5.2 WAR

1956 - 17th - tied for 1st in WAR with Snider (7.6) - Newcombe won it with 5.3

1957 - 4th - 1st in WAR (8.3) - Aaron with 8.0

1958 - 2nd - 1st in WAR (10.2) - Banks with 9.3

1959 - 6th - 4th in WAR (7.8) - Banks with 10.2

1960 - 3rd - 1st in WAR (9.5) - Groat with 6.1 - Mays was a full 1.5 higher than the next guy (Aaron with 8.0)

1961 - 2nd - 2nd in WAR (8.7) - Aaron with 9.4

1962 - 2nd - 1st in WAR (10.5) - Wills with 6.0 - Mays was 1.8 higher than next guy (Frank Robinson with 8.7)

1963 - 5th - 1st in WAR (10.6) - Koufax with 9.9

1964 - 6th - 1st in WAR (11.0) - Boyer with 6.1 - Mays 2.1 higher than next guy (Santo with 8.9)

1965 - MVP - 1st in WAR (11.2)

1966 - 3rd - 3rd in WARR (9.0) - Clemente with 8.2

1968 - 13th - 7th in WAR (6.3) - Gibson with 11.9

1971 - 19th - 8th in WAR (6.3) - Torre with 5.9 - Fergie Jenkins led MLB with 11.8 WAR

 

So in addition to winning in 54 and 65, it looks like he should have won 55, 60, 62, and 64. Argument could be made for 56, but I've got that going to Snider. Dodgers won Pennant that year and Giants were 67-87, so with the WAR being the same it likely goes to Snider that year if that vote were held today.

 

So ya, he should have 6 MVP's instead of 2.

Edited May 2, 2022 by OleMissCub

[OleMissCub]

 

Maybe, but from 22 to 28 it was a different award with weird rules that led to Ruth only winning once (prior winners were apparently ineligible). By the time the BBWAA MVP award came into existance in 1931, Ruth was at the end of his career, (but probably should've won in 31 and should've received votes in 33)

 

 

I'll be damned, you're right. Gehrig won in 1927 and didn't get votes again until 1931. Same with Walter Johnson after winning in 1924. Although that must have been an AL only thing. Look at Hornsby in the 20's; he got votes throughout the 20's despite winning in 1925.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hornsro01.shtml

[sweetpeteman]

 

Maybe, but from 22 to 28 it was a different award with weird rules that led to Ruth only winning once (prior winners were apparently ineligible). By the time the BBWAA MVP award came into existance in 1931, Ruth was at the end of his career, (but probably should've won in 31 and should've received votes in 33)

 

 

I'll be damned, you're right. Gehrig won in 1927 and didn't get votes again until 1931. Same with Walter Johnson after winning in 1924. Although that must have been an AL only thing. Look at Hornsby in the 20's; he got votes throughout the 20's despite winning in 1925.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hornsro01.shtml

 

 

The rules were different in the NL since the AL and NL were still essentially separate leagues at the time. It really wasn't until the 60's that they started becoming one league and they didn't stop actually existing as separate entities until 2000.

[Sammy Sofa]

https://defector.com/harold-lloyd-terrifying-babe-ruth-with-bad-driving-is-now-in-the-public-domain

Quote

A new year means new works of art in the public domain. Most famously, this means Steamboat Willie, which has led to a lot of people creating unimaginative Mickey Mouse parodies that would have been allowed all along as fair use anyway. But it also means your ass isn't going to get in any copyright trouble for using or sharing the likes of Lady Chatterley's Lover, The Man Who Laughs, The Threepenny Opera, and Tigger.

Cultural icons all, but I'd like to draw your attention to Speedy, which like all films of 1928 entered the public domain this week. It's notable for being the legendary Harold Lloyd's final silent feature and for being the earliest filmed instance of someone giving The Finger. Wow. Historic.

Quote

Speedy is also memorable for an appearance by Babe Ruth. While silent films were already increasingly unpopular with audiences, Ruth was in 1928 at the peak of his stardom, coming off a 60-homer season and a Yankees championship, and when Speedy was released just a few days before Opening Day, he may well have been the most famous person in the country.

 

[cl smooth]

Went on a “field trip” today to see the location of what used to be the Polo Grounds:

 

Willie Mays “The Catch” location:

 

John T. Brush Stairway. It provided access for the fans who lived in Coogan’s Bluff to the Polo Grounds:

Cool horsefeathers.

[soccer10k]

Don Mattingly played 14 seasons. In 1987, he hit 6 grand slams. In the other 13 seasons of his career, he hit 0 grand slams.

[Derwood]

JUICER

[javy knows my name]

6 hours ago, soccer10k said:

Don Mattingly played 14 seasons. In 1987, he hit 6 grand slams. In the other 13 seasons of his career, he hit 0 grand slams.

I love this horsefeathers 

[cl smooth]

7 hours ago, soccer10k said:

Don Mattingly played 14 seasons. In 1987, he hit 6 grand slams. In the other 13 seasons of his career, he hit 0 grand slams.

donnie baseball was the horsefeathers horsefeathers. his career was sandwiched between the yankees' last world series appearance at the time (1981) and when they won it all for the first time since 1978 (1996). it's a shame his back didn't hold up during the latter half of his career. 

his home run in the 1995 alds against the mariners still gives me goosebumps when i watch it:

big don mattingly truther. like tony gwynn and wade boggs, he was one of my favorite non-cubs growing up. 

Edited March 8, 2025 by cl smooth