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Baseball History Thread

Banedon

By Banedon,
in General Baseball Talk

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OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Usually I'm quick to take sides on any issue, but I still don't know how to handle this "Ty Cobb wasn't so bad" news, since hearing it a year or two ago. I have no idea how to feel.

 

Just check out the book. It's a fast read, is enlightening, and a lot of fun since it deals with deadball era baseball so much. The best story in there that I never heard about involved Joe DiMaggio. Somehow a young DiMaggio had found out that Cobb had negotiated his own contracts back in the day. When the Yankees came calling to sign him when he was like 19 and playing in the PCL, DiMaggio wrote Cobb for advice and Cobb ended up ghost-negotiating the contract between Joe and the Yankees and Joe ended up getting like 4 or 5 times what the Yankees had originally offered.

Sammy Sofa GOAT

Sammy Sofa

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Eh; ultimately that's a really long way of saying "Ty Cobb was not as racist or as much of an horsefeathers as you think." I mean, yeah, in a micro sense it's interesting to old timey baseball dorks, and it's obviously not a bad thing to see history corrected via something like Leerhsen's book...buuuuuuuuuuut is it really any kind of deal at all that the relatively few people who give a horsefeathers about Ty Cobb think he was more racist than he actually was?

 

Like, if anything, it weirdly hurts Cobb's legacy if he's less of a bastard. That people think he was such a remarkable scumbag is pretty much the only reason he's any kind of a widely known historical figure. Amazing stats, sure, but the dustbin of history is piled high with the almost totally forgotten legacies and lives of some of the greatest baseball players of all time. If you save Cobb's reputation, you're kinda just killing him, too.

 

Thing is, there are NO DOCUMENTED instances of him being racist. There are no documented instances of him doing anything ugly with racial motivation, not by actions or words. This is something that Leerhsen harps on quite a bit in the book, which by the way is a fascinating read and has won tons of awards. He was stunned to not come across anything verifiable about him being a racist. As Leerhsen wrote: "“If you stick to the facts, and not the myth or the assumptions about someone born in Georgia in 1886, it's very hard to make a case for Cobb being racist.”

 

Quite the contrary actually. His grandfather was a notable Southern abolitionist and had to go into hiding to avoid being killed for it during the Civil War. His father was the most progressive Georgia politician during his time (before famously being killed by his own wife at 42 the day before Ty was called up to the bigs). His father repeatedly put forward legislation to improve black schools (always failed) and broke up multiple lynch mobs, physically putting himself between the black men about to be killed and the mob themselves.

 

So yes, it does matter because it's unfair to besmirch someone's character for being a racist when there is no evidence that they were (in early 20th century terms).

 

Dude, you're all over the place; one post you're all, "of course he was a racist, as it was the style at the time," and now you're yelling at me like we have to acquit because the hood does not fit. If Ty Cobb wasn't a racist or not, I really don't care; I'm more curious as to what you think of the rest I said. Honestly, I think non-bastard Ty Cobb would be all but forgotten except when showing up on stat lists broadcast factoids. Oddly, his horrible reputation arguably did him a favor and actually made him a legend. "Amazing player/horrible human being" is, for better or for worse, MUCH more memorable. A reformed Cobb is potentially a forgotten Cobb.

OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Dude, you're all over the place; one post you're all, "of course he was a racist, as it was the style at the time," and now you're yelling at me like we have to acquit because the hood does not fit. If Ty Cobb wasn't a racist or not, I really don't care; I'm more curious as to what you think of the rest I said. Honestly, I think non-bastard Ty Cobb would be all but forgotten except when showing up on stat lists broadcast factoids. Oddly, his horrible reputation arguably did him a favor and actually made him a legend. "Amazing player/horrible human being" is, for better or for worse, MUCH more memorable. A reformed Cobb is potentially a forgotten Cobb.

 

I'm just conceding that yes, no doubt the guy was racially prejudiced, as typical of most everyone back then, but the label of "racist" shouldn't apply to him anymore than it would to Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Smoky Joe Wood, or any other ballplayer born that year.

 

It's an interesting thought. The average person with any sports knowledge knows who Ty Cobb is because of the Stump myth. You've got the Soundgarden song, the movie, the Field of Dreams reference (which is interesting since Cobb and Jackson were good friends and Cobb financially supported Jackson for years until Joe's death in the early 50's.), the Ken Burns series, etc. None of these pop culture references exist if not for Stump's BS. I think that without the Stump book, Cobb would obviously still be a well known name to the likes of you or I, but to the average person he'd be a Walter Johnson or a Grover Cleveland Alexander.

Edited by OleMissCub
Sammy Sofa GOAT

Sammy Sofa

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

 

Dude, you're all over the place; one post you're all, "of course he was a racist, as it was the style at the time," and now you're yelling at me like we have to acquit because the hood does not fit. If Ty Cobb wasn't a racist or not, I really don't care; I'm more curious as to what you think of the rest I said. Honestly, I think non-bastard Ty Cobb would be all but forgotten except when showing up on stat lists broadcast factoids. Oddly, his horrible reputation arguably did him a favor and actually made him a legend. "Amazing player/horrible human being" is, for better or for worse, MUCH more memorable. A reformed Cobb is potentially a forgotten Cobb.

 

I'm just conceding that yes, no doubt the guy was racially prejudiced, as typical of most everyone back then, but the label of "racist" shouldn't apply to him anymore than it would to Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Smoky Joe Wood, or any other ballplayer born that year.

 

It's an interesting thought. The average person with any sports knowledge knows who Ty Cobb is because of the Stump myth. You've got the Soundgarden song, the movie, the Field of Dreams reference (which is interesting since Cobb and Jackson were good friends and Cobb financially supported Jackson for years until Joe's death in the early 50's.), the Ken Burns series, etc. None of these pop culture references exist if not for Stump's BS. I think that without the Stump book, Cobb would obviously still be a well known name to the likes of you or I, but to the average person he'd be a Walter Johnson or a Grover Cleveland Alexander.

 

Agreed.

OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
What's strange to me though is why didn't more people rush to Cobb's defense when Stump's book came out?

 

He outlived most of his contemporaries for one thing. Secondly, there was indeed a bit of a kickback to the book. At the time, and I suppose this isn't surprising, the main thing that people took from the book was the whole "dirty ballplayer" thing and not the race stuff. Stump came up with stories about Cobb sharpening his spikes and intentionally kicking people in the chest or running over first baseman, etc., all done for the purpose of pure maliciousness. I can't recall the exact details, and I believe it's in Leerhsen's book, but at some point in the early 60's, The Sporting News sent out a questionnaire to a bunch of surviving deadball players and asked a bunch of general questions about who was the greatest player they ever saw, the best ballpark, best baseball city, etc. However, due to Stump's book, one of the questions they asked was about whether or not Cobb was a dirty ballplayer and whether he tried to hurt fielders. Only one or two out of like a hundred thought that he was. The consensus answer was basically "no, he wasn't a dirty player, we all played very rough back then. I never saw him go out of his way to hurt anyone."

 

One of those who responded that he was dirty was Carl Mays. Although I'm not sure Mays has a lot of room to speak since he was a notorious head hunter and is responsible for throwing the pitch that killed Ray Chapman. No doubt Mays' opinion of Cobb is different than most since Mays was someone that Cobb actually DID try to hurt deliberately. Cobb and Chapman were good friends, having served together in France during WWI. Cobb, right or wrong, held Mays personally responsible for Chapman's death due to Mays' headhunting ways and he made the media aware that he blamed Mays personally.

 

During their first meeting following Chapman's death, Cobb spiked the hell out of Mays after Mays threw at him, likely in response to all the hoopla Ty was generating. Here are Mays' words in the 1960's about the incident:

 

"The first time he came to bat I decked him good. The dirt really flew when he hit the ground and he came up wild with rage. But I made a mistake in sitting him down in that frame of mind. It nearly cost me my baseball career. I had to come in with the next pitch, in order to get even on the count, and he dragged a bunt down the first base line. I ran over, fielded the ball and turned to toss it to first base. But I never completed the play.

 

Just as I was about to toss an underhand lob I was slammed into from behind and knocked sprawling on the foul line. At the same time I felt one of Cobb's spikes rip into the calf of my left leg while his other tore my pants from the belt line right down to the back of my knee. Cobb had run right over me.

 

I lay there stunned for a moment and then rolled over onto the infield grass and sat up. When I got courage enough to look at my leg, it was just a bloody mess. I remember wondering if I would ever run again. And when I looked up at Cobb, there he was, standing with both feet on top of the first-base bag. His chin was sticking out like a witch's and his eyes were nearly popping out of his head. I never before had seen any person with such a look of wild hatred in his eyes.

 

What present-day fans don't know about Cobb is that he was like a big cat. If you turned your back to him he would strike--be off and running to the next base. You never could take your eyes off him. He was extremely fast and was running at full speed after having taken only one step.

 

The mistake I had made was in getting in his way on the baseline. The baseline was his--according to him--and he just ran right over me after knocking me to the ground. I carry the scar of that spiking to this day. It is more than six inches long. The doctor, incidentally, did a wonderful repair job and I only missed a couple of pitching turns."

 

some pics:

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/fUQYG9v.jpg

 

At the end of the game, Yankees fans stormed the field and surrounded Cobb pelting him with bottles and trash as he walked to the dugout, but didn't get too close for obvious reasons.

 

http://i.imgur.com/HzkhdW8.jpg

 

Here is Mays' delivery fwiw:

 

http://i.imgur.com/nos2ct1.gif

 

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...
OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

This is a pretty good podcast. Guy interviews people that have written baseball books, usually books about baseball history

 

https://player.fm/series/baseball-by-the-book

 

I was listening to an episode the other day where they featured this book where this guy ranks the top 1000 players. To be eligible you had to have played at least 10 years or be retired. This guy had Pujols at 544. When the host of the podcast called him out on it, the author basically stuttered his way to a non-answer. Am I crazy or does having Pujols as the 544th best player ever invalidate your entire book? I get that it's just a throwaway book, but that's ridiculous.

  • 1 month later...
CubinNY MVP

CubinNY

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

 

This is bWAR, not fWAR, though Fangraphs only has him slightly higher at 19.0

 

I see now. Regardless, that's pretty low for a guy with 300 HR.

 

Adam Dunn has 462 HR and he's got 16.9 bWAR and 25.4 fWAR.

LF are penalized by position. Compare him with only LFERS.

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
Hunter Draft Eligible

Hunter

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Besides the Cubs, when was the last time a team has made the LCS 3 years in a row?

Cardinals 2011-2014 so 4 years.

d_money First Round Pick

d_money

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Besides the Cubs, when was the last time a team has made the LCS 3 years in a row?

Cardinals 2011-2014 so 4 years.

F’n Cardinals. It had to be.

 

Thanks.

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