College Basketball 2015-16

[NewUserName]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

I think he develops ok, Malcolm Hill is miles beyond what he was, for example. I think the X and Os lead a lot to be desired though.

you can be the greatest x and o guy in the world, it does you no good if you don't have a point guard

[SouthSideRyan]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

[illiniguy]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

I just don't see what he could be basing it off of, this is the first group of kids that he has had and they are just now seniors. All three, including Nunn, improved a lot in their time at Champaign.

[Tim]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

I just don't see what he could be basing it off of, this is the first group of kids that he has had and they are just now seniors. All three, including Nunn, improved a lot in their time at Champaign.

He's lousy at keeping guys out of trouble?

[SouthSideRyan]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

I just don't see what he could be basing it off of, this is the first group of kids that he has had and they are just now seniors. All three, including Nunn, improved a lot in their time at Champaign.

 

Tate is the 4th, and he's definitely regressed, but I hardly think he's great evidence of failure to develop.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

[spoil]http://i.imgur.com/BoY9sNQ.jpg[/spoil]

[badger]

Groce is still their coach and he's not a very good coach or player developer.

 

Who are you basing that on?

 

 

My eyes and comparison to other coaches in the B1G who are great developers of young men when looking at what they do with incoming freshmen to exiting players. And stats in comparison to those players in other programs.

 

example - kenrick nunn had an Ortg of 106.7 and a Drtg of 103.3 when he entered the program. Last year he had an Ortg of 104.9 Drtg of 105. Even if you assume drtg has a greater dependency on his teammates (which in some way it does) his ortg has shown non-statistically significant improvement at best.

 

And I know he missed last year but abrams may have improved but if you get your star player to an ortg of 97 that's notthing to hang your hat on. I don't have time to look through them all. but these are examples.

[SouthSideRyan]

Abrams has never been Illinois's star player. He's just a steady hand at the point.

 

Both ORtg and DRtg are quite dependent on your teammates. Looking at them in a vacuum doesn't show you much of anything

 

You cite Nunn(questionable) and Abrams(he didn't develop him enough?) What of Egwu, Rice, Hill, and Morgan?

 

And yes, this is where Derwood chimes in and says well they must have won a bunch of national titles with all that improvement!! No, shut up Derwood. Illinois's biggest problem under Groce has been a lack of (healthy) talent, first from the hilariously bare cupboard Weber left, followed by some high profile misses on recruiting.

[Guest]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

[illiniguy]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

Don't forget Thorne, assuming he has anything left in the tank. That's a decent backup. I think Finke's biggest contribution will be getting his younger brother on campus, I hope. I could be wrong though.

[SouthSideRyan]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

 

They really ought to be a tournament team if any of Abrams, Lucas, or Tate(ha) can be a competent PG.

[Bobson Dugnutt]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

 

They really ought to be a tournament team if any of Abrams, Lucas, or Tate(ha) can be a competent PG.

 

I have to think they will be, so long as they can avoid the injury bug that destroyed them last year as well as all the off-court awfulness. I'm guessing Abrams will be the primary guy at point, but I know next to nothing about Lucas. Abrams, at the very least, is a steady presence, like you said. My only fear is, in the past, he sometimes tried to shoulder more of the load on offense than he should have. Although, when he was last on the court, that may have been by necessity. If he gels with Hill and JCL offensively, I'm very confident that Illinois is a tourney team.

[Guest]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

 

They really ought to be a tournament team if any of Abrams, Lucas, or Tate(ha) can be a competent PG.

 

let's just hope that Abrams can stay healthy. I'm willing to give Lucas a shot to impress, but I'm not expecting much. at least he's not Khalid whatever his name is.

[Guest]

Finke is a player who, when they have a PG on the court, could be a beast. I think Groce will hang his hat on that kid's development. Also, I think Morgan is primed for a breakout senior season. Williams improved at the end of the year, and JCL was pretty good as well. They seemingly have some beef down low with Black and Morgan, with Finke playing high and low.

 

Illinois will not lack for shooters, which is good. This is Groce's team completely and he's bought himself another year with the Tilmon commitment. But he's got to get it done at some point.

 

Again, I would like to reiterate how good I think Finke will be.

 

They really ought to be a tournament team if any of Abrams, Lucas, or Tate(ha) can be a competent PG.

 

I have to think they will be, so long as they can avoid the injury bug that destroyed them last year as well as all the off-court awfulness. I'm guessing Abrams will be the primary guy at point, but I know next to nothing about Lucas. Abrams, at the very least, is a steady presence, like you said. My only fear is, in the past, he sometimes tried to shoulder more of the load on offense than he should have. Although, when he was last on the court, that may have been by necessity. If he gels with Hill and JCL offensively, I'm very confident that Illinois is a tourney team.

 

they'll miss Nunn, but really, his minutes will probably go to guards who are just as capable.

[illiniguy]

I assume early on we won't get much out of Lucas, but like most freshman under Groce, he will start to get serious minutes the second half of the BIG season.

[badger]

Did you cite egwu as an example of player development. He was literally the same player for the last 3 years. He's a glaring example of not developing. Look at all of his stats. Or his just about average (mostly sub average) win shares all 3 of his last years.

[SouthSideRyan]

Did you cite egwu as an example of player development. He was literally the same player for the last 3 years. He's a glaring example of not developing. Look at all of his stats. Or his just about average (mostly sub average) win shares all 3 of his last years.

 

Now we're on win shares.

 

More importantly what did your eyes say for the 5 times that you watched him. That's what's most important.

[badger]

Did you cite egwu as an example of player development. He was literally the same player for the last 3 years. He's a glaring example of not developing. Look at all of his stats. Or his just about average (mostly sub average) win shares all 3 of his last years.

 

Now we're on win shares.

 

More importantly what did your eyes say for the 5 times that you watched him. That's what's most important.

 

 

That he didn't develop at all as a player after his sophomore year. And his stats back that assertion up. Unless you're going to quote intangibles. What statistic would you like us to use to identify development and contribution to the team? I'll gladly use whatever you hack up to back up your case. I was indicted for using Ortg and Drtg as team dependent. His useage percentage certainly didnt go up either, he was a low useage player is whole time.

 

But hey, I want a lifetime appointment for Groce, so I don't know why I'm arguing with you.

[SouthSideRyan]

He put up his best ORtg, DRtg, and Win Shares his senior year. He was quite clearly the linchpin to the Illinois defense his final 2 seasons, and all of this came after he was a gangly goof on offense and a foul machine on defense his first season. A player can develop without turning into an all-conference player, this shouldn't be that difficult.

 

And, so we're clear in response to other stats being too dependent, you went with Win Shares?

Edited July 13, 2016 by SouthSideRyan

[badger]

He put up his best ORtg, DRtg, and Win Shares his senior year. He was quite clearly the linchpin to the Illinois defense his final 2 seasons, and all of this came after he was a gangly goof on offense and a foul machine on defense his first season. A player can develop without turning into an all-conference player, this shouldn't be that difficult.

 

 

I'm looking at the same stats you're looking at, and he made a jump from freshman year to sophomore year and then ESSENTIALLY plateaued for the next three years. If you want to call that development ok. But hey, like I said, I want Groce there forever. Bo ate him up for lunch and Gard will too.

[Guest]

Groce taught him how to shoot.