Front Office Thread

[Guest]

a threshold that's mostly eluded us in RP bargain bin shopping (Soriano, Hunter, Medina, Coke, Russell)

Strop, Rondon, Grimm, Ramirez, Cahill, Richard, Rodney

 

You may complain that some weren't "bargain bin shopping", but they are: FA pickups, smaller trade pieces and Rule 5 picks. That's pretty much bargain bin defined.

 

What they've been awful at is signing relievers during the offseason and developing relief pitchers from their own system.

[Guest]

smh people talking about cutting Wood like they never noticed how godawful we are at finding RPs in FA...i'll keep the guy who's 2nd on the team in RP WAR thanks

At that price? meh.

 

You've always liked Wood more than he deserves.

You've always disliked Wood more than he deserves

 

he's given us something like $25m in surplus value the last 3 years, and he's been worth $10m this year, just going by replacement value - a threshold that's mostly eluded us in RP bargain bin shopping (Soriano, Hunter, Medina, Coke, Russell)

I appreciate what he's done this year. He's essentially been lefty Strop (in generally lower leverage situations). But I wouldn't be excited about paying Strop $6-7M, either.

what's the alternative?

more Coke/Soriano/Russell flyers? we're pretty awful at those

in-house graduation? the cupboard is pretty bare there, too

 

it may be worthwhile to recall that $4.5m on the FA market gets you a pitcher coming off arm injury and a 6.49 FIP / 4.58 xFIP / 4.68 ERA...

So your strategy in this conversation is to point out all the bad relievers we've acquired and pretend that we haven't acquired any good ones?

[SouthSideRyan]

so just give Jhoulys Chacin 1y/4m or whatever, sign Bud Norris to a minor league deal and this stupid problem is fixed, cool

 

And whadda ya know, we can add an actual top starter, because turns out spending 25M in starting pitching depth is unnecessary.

[sneakypower]

a threshold that's mostly eluded us in RP bargain bin shopping (Soriano, Hunter, Medina, Coke, Russell)

Strop, Rondon, Grimm, Ramirez, Cahill, Richard, Rodney

 

You may complain that some weren't "bargain bin shopping", but they are: FA pickups, smaller trade pieces and Rule 5 picks. That's pretty much bargain bin defined.

 

What they've been awful at is signing relievers during the offseason and developing relief pitchers from their own system.

the first four of those guys are terrible examples

 

those were the spoils of white flag sell-offs; who is the immediate contributor we're going to give up to get these smaller trade pieces? Castro, maybe? that'd go over well...

[sneakypower]

so just give Jhoulys Chacin 1y/4m or whatever, sign Bud Norris to a minor league deal and this stupid problem is fixed, cool

 

And whadda ya know, we can add an actual top starter, because turns out spending 25M in starting pitching depth is unnecessary.

do you pay attention to anything? i've advocated for Heyward about as much as anybody besides that annoying godzilla guy

[SouthSideRyan]

so just give Jhoulys Chacin 1y/4m or whatever, sign Bud Norris to a minor league deal and this stupid problem is fixed, cool

 

And whadda ya know, we can add an actual top starter, because turns out spending 25M in starting pitching depth is unnecessary.

do you pay attention to anything? i've advocated for Heyward about as much as anybody besides that annoying godzilla guy

 

Contrary to your opinion, it's not always about you. I'm building off your point that building SP depth shouldn't be an either-or with anything.

[Guest]

a threshold that's mostly eluded us in RP bargain bin shopping (Soriano, Hunter, Medina, Coke, Russell)

Strop, Rondon, Grimm, Ramirez, Cahill, Richard, Rodney

 

You may complain that some weren't "bargain bin shopping", but they are: FA pickups, smaller trade pieces and Rule 5 picks. That's pretty much bargain bin defined.

 

What they've been awful at is signing relievers during the offseason and developing relief pitchers from their own system.

the first four of those guys are terrible examples

 

those were the spoils of white flag sell-offs; who is the immediate contributor we're going to give up to get these smaller trade pieces? Castro, maybe? that'd go over well...

They're examples of trades the FA made that brought back very capable relievers, which you seem to say they can't do.

 

Who is to say that there can't be a reliever mixed into the return for Castro along with a main piece? Who is to say you can't trade an Almora for an established reliever? Coghlan should be able to net a good relief prospect. Since you're such a believer in Wood, perhaps a GM out there that agrees with you will give up a quality relief prospect for him, too. You're also ignoring that your main point that the front office can't find any good relievers is simply not true.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, I can't think of why a FO could identify good relievers who are out of favor with a big league team and/or fringe prospects, but couldn't identify the same in minor league/fringe signings.

[sneakypower]

Yeah, I can't think of why a FO could identify good relievers who are out of favor with a big league team and/or fringe prospects, but couldn't identify the same in minor league/fringe signings.

i don't think it's that they're out of favor, it's that teams really covet good starting pitching at the deadline and are as a result willing to part with guys if that's the price of doing business

 

like, i don't think Beane exactly gave up on Addison Russell

[davell]

As Raw said in the game thread yesterday, we've got Starlin, Javy, Soler, and Coghlan for 2 spots next year. That's 2 trades on the horizon of varying impact. Will they both be for pitching? Minor league depth?(hopefully not) Could a bat be dealt for?

 

Obviously we can(and will) endlessly speculate on it. It's a good position to be in at least.

 

I think we'll probably go the depth route, after heading some comments and speculation from some of the beat guys. But that doesn't mean picking up 3 Hammels. If we don't sign a TOR type in FA, I fully expect we'll trade for 1.

 

As for the rest of the depth? I'd be fine with a Chacin/Norris type of thing. Bosio is awesome and I don't want us spending 25-30 mill on 3 average guys, when we can resurrect another corpse or two for much cheaper. Even if it takes a strength in numbers approach of handing out minor league deals.

[sneakypower]

They're examples of trades the FA made that brought back very capable relievers, which you seem to say they can't do.

 

Who is to say that there can't be a reliever mixed into the return for Castro along with a main piece? Who is to say you can't trade an Almora for an established reliever? Coghlan should be able to net a good relief prospect. Since you're such a believer in Wood, perhaps a GM out there that agrees with you will give up a quality relief prospect for him, too. You're also ignoring that your main point that the front office can't find any good relievers is simply not true.

ok i surely underestimated your desperate insistence to expel Wood, because selling off a cheap, 3-win player to do so never even entered my mind as a possibility

[Guest]

They're examples of trades the FA made that brought back very capable relievers, which you seem to say they can't do.

 

Who is to say that there can't be a reliever mixed into the return for Castro along with a main piece? Who is to say you can't trade an Almora for an established reliever? Coghlan should be able to net a good relief prospect. Since you're such a believer in Wood, perhaps a GM out there that agrees with you will give up a quality relief prospect for him, too. You're also ignoring that your main point that the front office can't find any good relievers is simply not true.

ok i surely underestimated your desperate insistence to expel Wood, because selling off a cheap, 3-win player to do so never even entered my mind as a possibility

I don't feel the need to trade him off. But if management decides the Schwarber as C experiment is over, then there really isn't room for Coghlan except as a bench player. It would be a poor use of resources to keep him there instead of trading him for a good return if one can be had.

 

And you're still avoiding the point that management should be able to find a replacement for Wood at a heck of a lot less than $6-7M.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, I can't think of why a FO could identify good relievers who are out of favor with a big league team and/or fringe prospects, but couldn't identify the same in minor league/fringe signings.

i don't think it's that they're out of favor, it's that teams really covet good starting pitching at the deadline and are as a result willing to part with guys if that's the price of doing business

 

like, i don't think Beane exactly gave up on Addison Russell

 

Eh, I don't think Strop, Ramirez, or Grimm were really that highly valued by their respective teams. Not saying those types(with their control) are out there for free, but Strop was potential waiver wire fodder, and Ramirez and Grimm seem the type of need for need swaps that could be made without giving up any big talents.

[sneakypower]

And you're still avoiding the point that management should be able to find a replacement for Wood at a heck of a lot less than $6-7M.

they should be able to, but they've never shown much of a skill at doing so, unless in possession of a coveted SP to offer up at the deadline

[Guest]

And you're still avoiding the point that management should be able to find a replacement for Wood at a heck of a lot less than $6-7M.

they should be able to, but they've never shown much of a skill at doing so, unless in possession of a coveted SP to offer up at the deadline

I guess they must be better at identifying good relievers when it is midseason or something, eh? Or is the key that they have to be trading a pitcher?

 

Also, Scott Feldman, coveted, ha.

[Bull]

I guess I should make a point before my lunch is over. I don't think there's anything wrong with adding pitching, but I don't think it's a dire need. I'd would be ecstatic adding Price. I'd also be happy adding two Hammel's. When you have a 95 win team, you find ways replace the production of guys like Fowler and Hammel. You find small ways to improve, and you find ways to supplement In case someone (aka Castro this year) falls off a cliff. If one of those Fowler or Hammel replacements can be a big step forward and stay within budget: bonus.

You keep saying "replace Hammel". We still have him under contract next year. I see no reason to be in a rush to replace him at this point. Let him have another great first half and trade him at the deadline next year.

 

Yeah, I don't get it either.

 

Hammel xFIP by month:

 

April: 3.20

May: 3.05

June: 3.39

July: 4.55

August: 3.47

Sept/Oct: 3.90

 

For all the arguing about depth, this guy might be your 6th starter after you'd sign Price.

For some reason I thought he was on a one year deal. The point still stands, just remove the part about having to replace his production.

Bottom line, I like what Hendricks and Hammel have done this year and see no reason to be fretting about starting pitching for next year.

[KingCubsFan]

Castro should still have enough value to bring back a really solid prospect or two at this point

 

Why? He was available for free last month and nobody wanted him. I know he's had a good month, but I doubt that's rebuilt his trade value to the point where somebody is taking on his contract and giving something of value.

 

I've shared this sentiment before, but 'Castro clearing waivers means the baseline for his trade value is literally zero' is simply not true. Teams have different motivations and risk tolerances in August, and generally the default is letting a player pass through waivers out of courtesy if nothing else. We're 10 months removed from Matt Kemp's corpse and bloated contract getting insane value in trade, and he didn't have Starlin's youth, health, positional advantage, friendlier contract, or insane September to promote optimism.

I obviously have no insight as to how GMs view the waiver wire, but I just can't imagine a team like the Padres letting Castro slip through waivers simply out of courtesy if they felt his contract was at all friendly. I'm not saying he's untradeable, but I think people need to scale back expectations on getting anything of real value for him at this point.

[davell]

You fret because it's damn near an impossibility that our top 4 combine for 120 starts again next year.

[Sammy Sofa]

Castro should still have enough value to bring back a really solid prospect or two at this point

 

Why? He was available for free last month and nobody wanted him. I know he's had a good month, but I doubt that's rebuilt his trade value to the point where somebody is taking on his contract and giving something of value.

 

I've shared this sentiment before, but 'Castro clearing waivers means the baseline for his trade value is literally zero' is simply not true. Teams have different motivations and risk tolerances in August, and generally the default is letting a player pass through waivers out of courtesy if nothing else. We're 10 months removed from Matt Kemp's corpse and bloated contract getting insane value in trade, and he didn't have Starlin's youth, health, positional advantage, friendlier contract, or insane September to promote optimism.

I obviously have no insight as to how GMs view the waiver wire, but I just can't imagine a team like the Padres letting Castro slip through waivers simply out of courtesy if they felt his contract was at all friendly. I'm not saying he's untradeable, but I think people need to scale back expectations on getting anything of real value for him at this point.

 

Why? Players pass through waivers all the time; it means next to nothing.

[davell]

The Mets, Rays, Yankees, White Sox, Reds, Padres, Mariners, Pirates, Tigers, Rockies(my guess is they dump Reyes-possibly to the Yanks) and Marlins could all conceivably be looking for a SS this offseason. The FA available are Alexei Ramirez, Stephen Drew, Asdrubal Cabrera, Jimmy Rollins, and Ian Desmond.

 

That's why Castro has SOME value.

 

Considering he can also play 2B, that situation isn't any prettier. The Royals, Mets, Orioles, Yankees, Angels, Brewers, Phillies, Blue Jays, White Sox, and Diamondbacks could conceivably all look to do something there. FA are Cabrera, Drew, Howie Kendrick, Daniel Murphy, Chase Utley, and Ben Zobrist.

 

I'm sure a few of these teams probably have all glove, no hit stopgaps laying around. But there's enough teams in need here to where Starlin is going to be a relatively enticing option once the big names have gone off the board.

Edited October 1, 2015 by davell

[Guest]

Castro should still have enough value to bring back a really solid prospect or two at this point

 

Why? He was available for free last month and nobody wanted him. I know he's had a good month, but I doubt that's rebuilt his trade value to the point where somebody is taking on his contract and giving something of value.

 

I've shared this sentiment before, but 'Castro clearing waivers means the baseline for his trade value is literally zero' is simply not true. Teams have different motivations and risk tolerances in August, and generally the default is letting a player pass through waivers out of courtesy if nothing else. We're 10 months removed from Matt Kemp's corpse and bloated contract getting insane value in trade, and he didn't have Starlin's youth, health, positional advantage, friendlier contract, or insane September to promote optimism.

I obviously have no insight as to how GMs view the waiver wire, but I just can't imagine a team like the Padres letting Castro slip through waivers simply out of courtesy if they felt his contract was at all friendly. I'm not saying he's untradeable, but I think people need to scale back expectations on getting anything of real value for him at this point.

 

To stick with the Padres example, they probably have some pretty detailed knowledge of Castro's asking price considering the trade deadline rumors. Plus for any team claiming him, they know that they the return for that player has to pass through waivers as well, which further disincents the team from making a claim on anyone besides those who truly have minimal trade value.

 

Quite literally every single player gets put on waivers in August. A player passing through them is not useful information in determining his trade value.

[Guest]

Castro should still have enough value to bring back a really solid prospect or two at this point

 

Why? He was available for free last month and nobody wanted him. I know he's had a good month, but I doubt that's rebuilt his trade value to the point where somebody is taking on his contract and giving something of value.

 

I've shared this sentiment before, but 'Castro clearing waivers means the baseline for his trade value is literally zero' is simply not true. Teams have different motivations and risk tolerances in August, and generally the default is letting a player pass through waivers out of courtesy if nothing else. We're 10 months removed from Matt Kemp's corpse and bloated contract getting insane value in trade, and he didn't have Starlin's youth, health, positional advantage, friendlier contract, or insane September to promote optimism.

I obviously have no insight as to how GMs view the waiver wire, but I just can't imagine a team like the Padres letting Castro slip through waivers simply out of courtesy if they felt his contract was at all friendly. I'm not saying he's untradeable, but I think people need to scale back expectations on getting anything of real value for him at this point.

Players like Castro pass through waivers because teams know if the put in a claim, the Cubs won't give him away for nothing. A trade would still have to happen. The majority of times when a claim is made it is to block another team from getting that player.

[Guest]

Castro should still have enough value to bring back a really solid prospect or two at this point

 

Why? He was available for free last month and nobody wanted him. I know he's had a good month, but I doubt that's rebuilt his trade value to the point where somebody is taking on his contract and giving something of value.

 

I've shared this sentiment before, but 'Castro clearing waivers means the baseline for his trade value is literally zero' is simply not true. Teams have different motivations and risk tolerances in August, and generally the default is letting a player pass through waivers out of courtesy if nothing else. We're 10 months removed from Matt Kemp's corpse and bloated contract getting insane value in trade, and he didn't have Starlin's youth, health, positional advantage, friendlier contract, or insane September to promote optimism.

I obviously have no insight as to how GMs view the waiver wire, but I just can't imagine a team like the Padres letting Castro slip through waivers simply out of courtesy if they felt his contract was at all friendly. I'm not saying he's untradeable, but I think people need to scale back expectations on getting anything of real value for him at this point.

 

To stick with the Padres example, they probably have some pretty detailed knowledge of Castro's asking price considering the trade deadline rumors. Plus for any team claiming him, they know that they the return for that player has to pass through waivers as well, which further disincents the team from making a claim on anyone besides those who truly have minimal trade value.

 

Quite literally every single player gets put on waivers in August. A player passing through them is not useful information in determining his trade value.

Yes - I'm sure that Rizzo and Arrieta passed through waivers in August, too.

[sneakypower]

Also, Scott Feldman, coveted, ha.

you loved him!

viewtopic.php?p=2947071#p2947071

[Guest]

Also, Scott Feldman, coveted, ha.

you loved him!

viewtopic.php?p=2947071#p2947071

Sure, but that was when I was young and stupid.