40-man Roster/Rule 5 Discussion

[SouthSideRyan]

I think I was confused, I thought Pena was re-signed as a 6 year MiLFA.

 

ETA: Wait, I'm confused, not sure why you'd assume he's getting added to the 40 man. All I can find is him being re-signed along with Batista and Chen.

[davell]

I'm VERY fuzzy on these rules. He's been in the org since 2009, so he's been Rule 5 eligible previously.(like Contreras) I think he'll get added because his stuff took a leap this past season and based on a few things out there, he'd get snatched up by someone.

 

He's in the same boat as Contreras. He could have been picked last year too. No idea if we have right of refusal on guys after they've already gone past the 6 year mark or not. But if Pena could have just signed with another team after the season was over, I'd have thought we'd have heard a bunch of stuff on it, because Contreras would have been in the same situation.

 

I may very well be wrong, but I don't think he had a chance to sign with another team this off season prior to re-upping with us.

 

Edit- No explanation on Chen or Bautista, but I definitely don't think they've got a chance at a 40 man spot.

[CubsWin]

The point is other than a dumb FO not doing their due diligence, there's no reason to think he'd be drafted in Rule 5 when he was just a MiLFA 3 weeks prior.

If a player signs by 5pm Eastern, 5 days after the end of the World Series, in this case November 6th, he's not declared a FA and no other team has the opportunity to sign him. Felix Pena signed before the deadline.

 

So, he will remain Cubs property if, and only if, he's not selected in the rule 5 draft. Not that I care that much about him. He did take a step forward last season though. My personal thought is he doesn't get added to the 40-man, but there is reason to think that he might.

[CubsWin]

What am I missing here? Did other teams even have a chance to sign him? He was in our system obviously. It looks like we just did what looks to be a procedural move, prior to adding him to the 40 man at whatever date that is.

The date at which players must be added to the 40-man is November 20th which is two weeks after the deadline to sign your minor league FAs. It wasn't a procedural move preceding being added to the 40-man. As I think you stated earlier, Willson Contreras went through the same process last year when he was a 6-year minor league FA. He wasn't added to the 40-man then and neither does Pena need to be now. He still can be, of course. The Cubs have until the 20th to decide. It'll be interesting to see if you're right!

 

Luckily Willson wasn't selected in the rule 5. I'm sure lots of teams would love to have him now...

[SouthSideRyan]

The point is other than a dumb FO not doing their due diligence, there's no reason to think he'd be drafted in Rule 5 when he was just a MiLFA 3 weeks prior.

If a player signs by 5pm Eastern, 5 days after the end of the World Series, in this case November 6th, he's not declared a FA and no other team has the opportunity to sign him. Felix Pena signed before the deadline.

 

Then Pena's agent would be the one not doing his due diligence I guess, by signing before hitting FA if there was a team out there that had interest on him for a 40 man spot.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain 6 year MiL free agents are in the same boat as your standard major league FA. They can re-up prior to hitting the open market, but the team doesn't have any sort of auto-renew the first time around like with those pre-arb players on the 40 man.

[davell]

Wouldn't that be a way to circumvent the Rule 5 though? Is there maybe a rule that keeps teams FROM adding guys not currently on the 40 man to theirs? It'd kind of make sense.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's not circumventing the rules. Pena was free to not re-sign with the Cubs and become an unrestricted Rule 55 free agent. He chose to re-up with the Cubs on a minor league deal likely because A. there wasn't interest in him from other clubs to have him on a deal including a 40 man roster spot or B. he felt his opportunity was best with the Cubs, either through implicit promises, or comfort level with its instructors.

[davell]

Read thru AZPhil's stuff- He signed a successor contract. Teams have until January 15th to offer them to their own minor league FA. Its not until that point that the player actually becomes an unrestricted FA.

[SouthSideRyan]

Read thru AZPhil's stuff- He signed a successor contract. Teams have until January 15th to offer them to their own minor league FA. Its not until that point that the player actually becomes an unrestricted FA.

 

Huh. Well that's a new one on me. That absolutely appears to be circumventing Rule 5, though it would affect so few players (guys who've been around long enough to be drafted multiple times, and never had a team bite on adding them to their 25, nor their existing team add them to their 40) I guess nobody bothers to care.

[CubsWin]

Read thru AZPhil's stuff- He signed a successor contract. Teams have until January 15th to offer them to their own minor league FA. Its not until that point that the player actually becomes an unrestricted FA.

 

Huh. Well that's a new one on me. That absolutely appears to be circumventing Rule 5, though it would affect so few players (guys who've been around long enough to be drafted multiple times, and never had a team bite on adding them to their 25, nor their existing team add them to their 40) I guess nobody bothers to care.

How does that circumvent the rule 5 draft?

[SouthSideRyan]

So they're still eligible to be drafted? Wouldn't anyone not signed to a contract by Rule 5 time be drafted into the AA round in the very least?

[craig]

He's Rule 5 eligible for sure. (Well, unless the Cubs now decide to roster him, which I don't expect.)

 

And there isn't anything procedural that necessitates doing this prior to rostering him, if that was indeed what they intended. (If this was an obscure procedural step needed prior to Rule 5-protection, then Contreras would have undergone the same necessary procedural step, which in fact did not happen.)

 

As Ryan said, he just decided that he'd rather stay with Cubs on a minor-league contract than wait and hope for something more attractive elsewhere. If he had reason to expect other teams to offer him major-league contracts, he should have waited. Given how thin the Cubs pitching is, especially in terms of potential yo-yo guys with options, he's probably wise to stick with the Cubs. I'm sure a 40-man spot elsewhere would pay better, but I can't imagine there are many orgs who are more thin in terms of both rotation and relief yo-yo candidates.

 

But, certainly if some other team wants him for 25-man, they are free to Rule 5 him.

[davell]

Craig, Contreras has done the EXACT same thing as Pena has. He re-signed(a few days earlier) and now they(and others) wait until Nov.20th to see if they get added(obviously Contreras is a lock)

 

That said, even after my explanation-I'm still [expletive] wrong and SSR is right. I hate reading those AZPhil rules and stuff because after I read through some long ass paragraph that was hard to decipher, I failed to read the 2 line paragraph underneath it. Which clearly states anyone who's a FA after the season expires IS free to sign with another team. The January 15th stuff is ONLY if the team hasn't offered a successor contract by that time-then those guys are full FA.

 

So yes, Contreras, Pena, whoever.....Could very well have jumped ship if they wanted to do so. My guess is it's just not something minor league guys do though, unless they've truly had a bad experience with the organization.

 

Craig, why do you think Pena has no shot at being added, by the way? The reports have been excellent. He's hitting 95 regularly as a starter this past season and his K rate jumped up a bunch. Manuel thinks he'll be on their top 30 list. AZPhil thinks he's close to a lock to get added.....Just based on that(and the fact we've got a bunch of open spots), I think he's getting added at this point. Maybe even over a guy like Vogelbach. Manuel made it sound as if he'd definitely get taken in the Rule 5, by the way.

[davell]

double

[CubsWin]

So they're still eligible to be drafted? Wouldn't anyone not signed to a contract by Rule 5 time be drafted into the AA round in the very least?

I've made about 5 posts explaining that even though a guy signs as a minor league FA, he can still be drafted in the major league portion of the rule 5 draft. Anyone not on a team's 40-man roster can be drafted, period. Maybe you just don't believe me. :P

[craig]

Craig, Contreras has done the EXACT same thing as Pena has. He re-signed(a few days earlier) and now they(and others) wait until Nov.20th to see if they get added(obviously Contreras is a lock).....

 

So yes, Contreras, Pena, whoever.....Could very well have jumped ship if they wanted to do so.

 

Craig, why do you think Pena has no shot at being added, by the way? ....

 

Ah, then I'm way wrong. I thought they did something with Pena different than what they did with Contreras. If it was EXACTLY the same, then the question of Pena being rostered remains open.

 

Something seems not right, though. You write that Pena and Contreras could have jumped ship. I don't believe that can have been true. (Just using common sense here, not having read the rules.) The Cubs could have rostered Contreras whenever they wanted. I can't imagine they'd have **ever** let him become a completely free free agent free to jump ship this fall. We see what international unlimited FA's get; and we see what teams spend for first and second round talent, especially prior to the draft cap. *If* Contreras had really been free, would he not have received an offer of at least a million, and possibly several of them? Proceduraly I can't imagine the Cubs ever let him go free.

[CubsWin]

Craig, Contreras has done the EXACT same thing as Pena has. He re-signed(a few days earlier) and now they(and others) wait until Nov.20th to see if they get added(obviously Contreras is a lock).....

 

So yes, Contreras, Pena, whoever.....Could very well have jumped ship if they wanted to do so.

 

Craig, why do you think Pena has no shot at being added, by the way? ....

 

Ah, then I'm way wrong. I thought they did something with Pena different than what they did with Contreras. If it was EXACTLY the same, then the question of Pena being rostered remains open.

 

Something seems not right, though. You write that Pena and Contreras could have jumped ship. I don't believe that can have been true. (Just using common sense here, not having read the rules.) The Cubs could have rostered Contreras whenever they wanted. I can't imagine they'd have **ever** let him become a completely free free agent free to jump ship this fall. We see what international unlimited FA's get; and we see what teams spend for first and second round talent, especially prior to the draft cap. *If* Contreras had really been free, would he not have received an offer of at least a million, and possibly several of them? Proceduraly I can't imagine the Cubs ever let him go free.

Neither Pena or Contreras could have "jumped ship". The Cubs had until 5 days after the end of the World Series, in this case Nov. 6th, to sign them as minor league FAs. They did so by the deadline so no other team had the chance to negotiate with them.

 

They have until the 20th to place them on the 40-man roster before they'll be exposed in the upcoming rule 5 draft. Unless he's traded before then, we all expect Contreras to be added. Pena could be. We'll have to wait and see. The Cubs 40-man roster currently has 10 open slots.

[davell]

With Acevedo and Leathersich added, it makes tomorrow's deadline a bit more interesting. I'd say my confidence on Pena has taken a severe hit based on those 2 moves. Obviously Contreras gets added and I'd say I'm 95% sure Johnson and Candelario are as well. After that, I'm 50/50 on Vogelbach now. Was higher prior to those 2 moves, same with Pena. I've been in doubt on Corey Black, but I'd assume he's still a consideration.

 

What can we drop though? Beeler, Jokisch, and Medina seem the obvious choices to me. Medina especially, as he's out of options. Leathersich conceivably can get passed through again himself, with the fact he's just had TJS making it iffy if other teams want to add him right now.

 

Szczur and Villanueva are out of options as well, I could see them being moved tomorrow, I guess. I'd think maybe it'd be in minor trades though.

[craig]

..Obviously Contreras gets added and I'd say I'm 95% sure Johnson and Candelario are as well. After that, I'm 50/50 on Vogelbach now. Was higher prior to those 2 moves, same with Pena. I've been in doubt on Corey Black, but I'd assume he's still a consideration.

 

What can we drop though? Beeler, Jokisch, and Medina seem the obvious choices to me. Medina especially, as he's out of options. Leathersich conceivably can get passed through again himself, with the fact he's just had TJS making it iffy if other teams want to add him right now.

 

Szczur and Villanueva are out of options as well, I could see them being moved tomorrow, I guess. I'd think maybe it'd be in minor trades though.

 

I'd just do the main three, Contreras, Johnson, and Candelario.

 

No way I'd waste a spot on Vogelbach. Only playable skill is walking; don't see any team burning a 25-man spot to protect a walking DH. If they keep a 4th guy, I'd assume it would be one of the pitchers.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Beyond the obvious 3 (Candelerio, Contreres, and Johnskn, though I also think Vogelbach who will be later traded,) I guess what it comes down to is whether Black, Francescan, and Jensen more valuable as assets than borderline replacement level depth like Jokisch, Beeler, and Rosscup.

[SouthSideRyan]

Beyond the obvious 3 (Candelerio, Contreres, and Johnskn, though I also think Vogelbach who will be later traded,) I guess what it comes down to is whether Black, Francescan, and Jensen more valuable as assets than borderline replacement level depth like Jokisch, Beeler, and Rosscup.

 

#bukiesignal

[Vinestal]

Sarah Vogelbach @Svogey

Never doubted God's plan for my brother. Congrats on making the 40 man!! You deserve it @DanielVogelbach I love you so much

[davell]

I think he's solid depth. No issue with that.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I was rooting for him to be left off just to see the consternation on some fans' faces, but he's probably worth the spot. Barely.

[SouthSideRyan]

Marco Hernandez was added to the Red Sox 40 man. With the Patton trade + Vogelbach, we're at 34 by my count.