2015 Bears Offseason (Foxy new Head Coach page 104)

[Guest]

The Bears signed John Tait because of Chad Hutchinson.

Also Lovie hired the QB whisperer Terry O'Shea for Grossman(?)

 

This ones serious. I think O'Shea was considered a QB guru. Lol

[Guest]

The Bears signed John Tait because of Chad Hutchinson.

Also Lovie hired the QB whisperer Terry O'Shea for Grossman(?)

 

This ones serious. I think O'Shea was considered a QB guru. Lol

 

I didn't hate how that was looking for those 2.95 games or whatever (iirc, Detroit, GB, & Minny?)

[JonJayCutler]

I swear this guy is turning into this generation's Jeff George

 

How original.

[ConstableRabbit]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

[rawaction]

And your opinion is neither logical nor scientific.

 

Scientific? Who said it was?

 

Logical? Bears said next coach/GM will determine if Cutler is back. Obviously they don't feel he's the longterm answer if there's even a question now. Why hire a guy to make the best of 2 years in the grand scheme of things?

 

Because in the grand scheme of the NFL the only thing that matters is the next couple years. You can't determine where this team will be 8-10 years from now this offseason. You get the most out of what you have and then replace as needed.

 

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

[JonJayCutler]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

[Guest]

And your opinion is neither logical nor scientific.

 

Scientific? Who said it was?

 

Logical? Bears said next coach/GM will determine if Cutler is back. Obviously they don't feel he's the longterm answer if there's even a question now. Why hire a guy to make the best of 2 years in the grand scheme of things?

 

Because in the grand scheme of the NFL the only thing that matters is the next couple years. You can't determine where this team will be 8-10 years from now this offseason. You get the most out of what you have and then replace as needed.

 

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

So your argument comes down to the fact that you think Shannahan is not replaceable and that's why we shouldn't hire him....

[jersey cubs fan]

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

 

If the Bears do move on from Cutler in a couple years, and Shanahan is the head coach. He will have failed and he will probably not be the guy to make the next selection. Presumably, an entrenched GM would then get the chance to start fresh at that time.

 

You avoid throwing away the future by not trading anymore future draft picks, whether that is for current veterans or even moving up in the draft.

 

They can hire a GM and Shanahan, try and win the next couple years without levering the future and while still turning over the roster with younger players.

 

I'm not necessarily saying he has to be the guy, but there is nobody currently out there who is a better bet to win the next few years and no obvious better choices. There's a bunch of lottery tickets out there with the same resumes as a million previous failed head coaches.

[rawaction]

And your opinion is neither logical nor scientific.

 

Scientific? Who said it was?

 

Logical? Bears said next coach/GM will determine if Cutler is back. Obviously they don't feel he's the longterm answer if there's even a question now. Why hire a guy to make the best of 2 years in the grand scheme of things?

 

Because in the grand scheme of the NFL the only thing that matters is the next couple years. You can't determine where this team will be 8-10 years from now this offseason. You get the most out of what you have and then replace as needed.

 

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

So your argument comes down to the fact that you think Shannahan is not replaceable and that's why we shouldn't hire him....

 

No. My argument comes down to Shanahan being old, and his sole reason for candidicacy is he had success with Cutler 7-8 years ago as far as I can tell.

[RynoRules]

Your argument makes no sense and is circuitous, raw, and you probably know I generally agree with you on most stuff.

 

The Bears haven't made all the coaching and personnel changes they have because of Jay. They made them because the team's offensive performance was well below par in spite of Jay (a QB with above average skills). It was an utter failure of coaching and personnel management (see the underlines below).

 

Martz nearly got Jay killed behind a horrendous offensive line and with absolutely no one to throw to. Tice was an unimaginative play-caller who had few offensive weapons at his disposal beyond Jay and Forte and was also hampered by the O-Line's suck for at least one of his years as the OC.

 

If you had put Peyton Manning in those situations it might have resulted in one more win each season. If it had been Steve Fuller we probably would have had Top 3 picks each season.

[RynoRules]

I have zero problem with your arg re Shanny, BTW. He's not a great coach.

[ConstableRabbit]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

[jersey cubs fan]

No. My argument comes down to Shanahan being old, and his sole reason for candidicacy is he had success with Cutler 7-8 years ago as far as I can tell.

 

Take Cutler out of the equation.

 

 

I think Shanahan is the only established Super Bowl winning head coach on the market with a history of winning in multiple locations. He's won with multiple quarterbacks, including mediocre kids, stars on the decline and journeymen veterans.

 

That resume is the best one on the market.

 

Now add the fact that he has a history with Cutler and there are multiple good reasons to consider him the best option for the next 3-4 years. He is old, but he's practically the same age that Coughlin was when he won his first SB and younger than he was when he won his second. He's also younger than Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick.

[rawaction]

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

 

If the Bears do move on from Cutler in a couple years, and Shanahan is the head coach. He will have failed and he will probably not be the guy to make the next selection. Presumably, an entrenched GM would then get the chance to start fresh at that time.

 

You avoid throwing away the future by not trading anymore future draft picks, whether that is for current veterans or even moving up in the draft.

 

They can hire a GM and Shanahan, try and win the next couple years without levering the future and while still turning over the roster with younger players.

 

I'm not necessarily saying he has to be the guy, but there is nobody currently out there who is a better bet to win the next few years and no obvious better choices. There's a bunch of lottery tickets out there with the same resumes as a million previous failed head coaches.

 

But a GM is starting fresh now. What's the point of firing Emery if this new GM will be starting fresh (again) in 2 years?

 

They can hire a GM, keep Cutler, and try to win the next couple years, while still turning over the roster, with a coach other than Shanahan. This shouldn't be a Cubs like situation. You get your Maddon now if you feel he's out there. You don't waste a couple years with Dale Swuem, while you get the roster together.

[apete6]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

 

Jeff George had a career 80.4 QB rating (i know, not a great measure, but the one with the most history--QBR only goes back to 2006), here's how that compares to some of his peers from his "era":

 

Steve Young: 96.8!!!!!!!!!!

Dan Marino: 86.4

Brett Favre: 86.0

Rich Gannon: 84.7

Jim Kelly: 84.4

Mark Brunell: 84.0

Brad Johnson: 82.5

Neil O'Donnell: 81.8

Troy Aikman: 81.6

Randall Cunningham: 81.5

Boomer Esiason: 81.1

Warren Moon: 80.9

Jeff George: 80.4

John Elway: 79.9

Mark Rypien: 78.9

Jim Everett: 78.6

Phil Simms: 78.5

Jeff Blake: 78.0

Jim Harbaugh: 77.6

Drew Bledsoe: 77.1

Vinny Testaverde: 75.0

 

Conclusions: Jeff George wasn't nearly as horrible as he's made out to be, goes to show that being a dick is much worse than being an average QB. Steve Young was unbelievable, Rich Gannon and Mark Brunell are underrated, Elway is highly overrated, Moon, Esiason, Cunningham, Simms, and especially Troy Aikman are overrated.

 

For reference, Cutler's QB rating is 85.2 and that's tied for 13th among active QBs (tied with Cam Newton and Andy Dalton) (minimum 1500 pass attempts)--basically in George territory, and ahead of Flacco, Stafford, and Eli. Also, Aaron Rodgers is unbelievable.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

[KingCubsFan]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

George: 131 games, 57.9% completion percentage, 27,602 yards, 154 TD/113 INT for an 80.4 rating (and 41 fumbles)

 

Cutler: 119 games, 61.7% completion percentage, 27,749 yards, 183 TD/130 INT for an 85.2 rating (and 45 fumbles)

[ConstableRabbit]

I can agree with that. But that doesn't mean you throw away the future for the next couple years. If the Bears are thinking about getting rid of Jay at all before his career ends (and they are), then the next coach will pick the QB after him. I don't want Shanahan picking that QB if he's not going to be here to coach him. And I don't think he will be here becuase he'll be 65-66 when that QB is ready to play.

 

If the Bears do move on from Cutler in a couple years, and Shanahan is the head coach. He will have failed and he will probably not be the guy to make the next selection. Presumably, an entrenched GM would then get the chance to start fresh at that time.

 

You avoid throwing away the future by not trading anymore future draft picks, whether that is for current veterans or even moving up in the draft.

 

They can hire a GM and Shanahan, try and win the next couple years without levering the future and while still turning over the roster with younger players.

 

I'm not necessarily saying he has to be the guy, but there is nobody currently out there who is a better bet to win the next few years and no obvious better choices. There's a bunch of lottery tickets out there with the same resumes as a million previous failed head coaches.

 

But a GM is starting fresh now. What's the point of firing Emery if this new GM will be starting fresh (again) in 2 years?

 

They can hire a GM, keep Cutler, and try to win the next couple years, while still turning over the roster, with a coach other than Shanahan. This shouldn't be a Cubs like situation. You get your Maddon now if you feel he's out there. You don't waste a couple years with Dale Swuem, while you get the roster together.

Except Shanahan isn't Dale [expletive] Sveum.

[ConstableRabbit]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

George: 131 games, 57.9% completion percentage, 27,602 yards, 154 TD/113 INT for an 80.4 rating (and 41 fumbles)

 

Cutler: 119 games, 61.7% completion percentage, 27,749 yards, 183 TD/130 INT for an 85.2 rating (and 45 fumbles)

Right... Cutler is absolutely better.

[Guest]

Your argument makes no sense and is circuitous, raw, and you probably know I generally agree with you on most stuff.

 

The Bears haven't made all the coaching and personnel changes they have because of Jay. They made them because the team's offensive performance was well below par in spite of Jay (a QB with above average skills). It was an utter failure of coaching and personnel management (see the underlines below).

 

Martz nearly got Jay killed behind a horrendous offensive line and with absolutely no one to throw to. Tice was an unimaginative play-caller who had few offensive weapons at his disposal beyond Jay and Forte and was also hampered by the O-Line's suck for at least one of his years as the OC.

 

If you had put Peyton Manning in those situations it might have resulted in one more win each season. If it had been Steve Fuller we probably would have had Top 3 picks each season.

 

This hits the nail on the head. In a crazy hypothetical world where the Bears were able to convince any team to take Cutler and give us a better QB in return, I don't think the Bears would close that door. But, the reality is that if they dump Cutler for a draft pick or a lesser skilled QB, this team is taking a huge step backwards. While ownership/upper management has come out and said that the next GM/HC will have the decision of whether Cutler stays or goes, that's probably a loose throw away line meant to inspire Jay to play better moreso than giving full personnel decision powers. It's clear Cutler needs to play better, and by tossing that line out there, and the new GM keeping Cutler shows a vote of confidence for Jay.

 

If Kubiak is the new coach and he says he can't work with Cutler, is he going to be in a better position to win with this team with Claussen or McCown or Jake Locker or their equal coming in to take over the starting QB role over Shanahan coming in and taking over as the new coach with a good working relationship with Cutler?

 

Maybe Kubiak can work with Cutler and that ends up being a better fit. But, I firmly believe that this team is not ready to move on without Cutler even if they are tossing out hints that they are. Cutler gives them the best chance to win over these next two years. If they don't, then go ahead and dump him.

[apete6]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

George: 131 games, 57.9% completion percentage, 27,602 yards, 154 TD/113 INT for an 80.4 rating (and 41 fumbles)

 

Cutler: 119 games, 61.7% completion percentage, 27,749 yards, 183 TD/130 INT for an 85.2 rating (and 45 fumbles)

 

As I referenced above, "era" has a lot to do with Jay's numbers being better. They're very similar and similar compared to their peers. Nothing wrong with having an average QB who can make some unbelievable throws.

[Guest]

No. My argument comes down to Shanahan being old, and his sole reason for candidicacy is he had success with Cutler 7-8 years ago as far as I can tell.

 

Take Cutler out of the equation.

 

 

I think Shanahan is the only established Super Bowl winning head coach on the market with a history of winning in multiple locations. He's won with multiple quarterbacks, including mediocre kids, stars on the decline and journeymen veterans.

 

That resume is the best one on the market.

 

Now add the fact that he has a history with Cutler and there are multiple good reasons to consider him the best option for the next 3-4 years. He is old, but he's practically the same age that Coughlin was when he won his first SB and younger than he was when he won his second. He's also younger than Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick.

This is the best post so far re this discussion. But raw just compared Shanny to Dave Swuem so there must be some huge bias here for him that's going to make it impossible for him to to see a Shanny hire isn't just for Jay.

[ConstableRabbit]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

George: 131 games, 57.9% completion percentage, 27,602 yards, 154 TD/113 INT for an 80.4 rating (and 41 fumbles)

 

Cutler: 119 games, 61.7% completion percentage, 27,749 yards, 183 TD/130 INT for an 85.2 rating (and 45 fumbles)

 

As I referenced above, "era" has a lot to do with Jay's numbers being better. They're very similar and similar compared to their peers. Nothing wrong with having an average QB who can make some unbelievable throws.

That's fair.

[jersey cubs fan]

But a GM is starting fresh now. What's the point of firing Emery if this new GM will be starting fresh (again) in 2 years?

 

They can hire a GM, keep Cutler, and try to win the next couple years, while still turning over the roster, with a coach other than Shanahan. This shouldn't be a Cubs like situation. You get your Maddon now if you feel he's out there. You don't waste a couple years with Dale Swuem, while you get the roster together.

 

There is no Maddon. If anything, Shanahan is the closest thing to a Maddon. He's not Dale Freaking Sveum.

 

The fact is the GM isn't really starting fresh. You have big contracts with cap ramifications this year. You can accelerate the fresh start by cutting everybody, taking the hit and maybe drafting first next year. That would be a fresh start. But I think that type of Cubs like dive is dumb and inappropriate. There is no established GM with a proven track record of hiring the right guys. I'd rather give a guy a few years to get the lay of the land as a GM with his own staff than tie him to his first hire as a long-term situation. Whoever the next coach is, if he wins, he will gain more and more power. The responsibility for winning next year is on the next coach. The responsibility for winning longterm is on the GM.

[Guest]

Jeff George wishes he put up Jay's numbers.

 

Eh, he had a few good years. The comparison isn't really the problem, it's more that people think George was this horrible QB when he was mostly decent.

 

I guess in that way he's very much like Cutler.

Oh I agree, but Cutler's numbers are absolutely better than George's.

George: 131 games, 57.9% completion percentage, 27,602 yards, 154 TD/113 INT for an 80.4 rating (and 41 fumbles)

 

Cutler: 119 games, 61.7% completion percentage, 27,749 yards, 183 TD/130 INT for an 85.2 rating (and 45 fumbles)

 

If you put Jeff George behind the lines that Jay Cutler has had to work behind, I'm sure those numbers change quite a bit.

[jersey cubs fan]

Does Perry Fewell go at the top of the list of a theoretical Dave Toub coaching staff?