Soriano feels mistreated....

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If the manager covered up the lineup card and just told the guy "Hey, you, it's your turn to hit," what percentage of major league players would know if they were batting 6th or 7th?

[YearofDaCubs]

I've wanted Soriano gone for a long time. Personally, I don't have anything against Soriano the person but I hate the player, I always have. He was paid very well by the Cubs to be a difference maker and he was that for 3 years but since that time he stopped running, never played a good defense, and has mental lapses during games. His numbers are only going to get worse and I'd rather take a chance on some AAAA player than have a guy like that on the team.

 

Ridiculous. You don't cut a guy who can still be useful just because you don't like him. He still put up a .271 .312 .500 .812 line against LH pitchers this year. Why not just platoon him?

If he's already complaining about batting 7th don't you think he's going to complain about being platooned? Also, though the numbers against lefties are slightly above average I fully expect his numbers to be even worse next year. I'd rather let Brett Jackson take up LF full-time or find a better replacement than have Soriano there against lefties and taking a roster spot to do so. That's my opinion of course.

 

If Jackson is in LF and Soriano is cut to make you feel better, who is playing the other OF spot? Where is this better replacement coming from? Are we passing on Fielder/Pujols because we have to spend money on the OF to satisfy Soriano's bloodlust?

There should be a decent amount of OF free agents next year that would come cheap and be better than Soriano.

[Sammy Sofa]

I've wanted Soriano gone for a long time. Personally, I don't have anything against Soriano the person but I hate the player, I always have. He was paid very well by the Cubs to be a difference maker and he was that for 3 years but since that time he stopped running, never played a good defense, and has mental lapses during games. His numbers are only going to get worse and I'd rather take a chance on some AAAA player than have a guy like that on the team.

 

Ridiculous. You don't cut a guy who can still be useful just because you don't like him. He still put up a .271 .312 .500 .812 line against LH pitchers this year. Why not just platoon him?

If he's already complaining about batting 7th don't you think he's going to complain about being platooned? Also, though the numbers against lefties are slightly above average I fully expect his numbers to be even worse next year. I'd rather let Brett Jackson take up LF full-time or find a better replacement than have Soriano there against lefties and taking a roster spot to do so. That's my opinion of course.

 

If Jackson is in LF and Soriano is cut to make you feel better, who is playing the other OF spot? Where is this better replacement coming from? Are we passing on Fielder/Pujols because we have to spend money on the OF to satisfy Soriano's bloodlust?

There should be a decent amount of OF free agents next year that would come cheap and be better than Soriano.

 

Jackson is already being counted on to take over in CF. Byrd is only a stopgap in RF for one season at the most. Soriano is trending downwards, but if you platoon him enough you're likely to get serviceable or better LF production next season that is more cost effective and productive than going out and signing someone off the scrapheap and paying that person on top of Soriano's salary. The time will come, but they're likely not yet at the point where they need to cut him.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yet again, I'm not saying any player should just hit in one spot. I'm saying in this case he had too many PA spread across three spots. That's not saying a player can't do that, but I think with a lot of guys there is a threshold where it becomes too much.

 

I think that is a whole bunch of nonsense. Soriano is a bad baseball player in a mediocre lineup. He should expect to have to move around. In his case, the vast majority of his time has been in the 6th or 7th hole, which are virtually indistinguishable from a player's perspective. Being a 5/6/7 hitter isn't like he's going from 1/4/8. He just can't hit. No excuses about where in the order.

 

Unbelievable. It's like if you say anything beyond trashing the guy certain people here assume you're praising his hitting ability.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Yet again, I'm not saying any player should just hit in one spot. I'm saying in this case he had too many PA spread across three spots. That's not saying a player can't do that, but I think with a lot of guys there is a threshold where it becomes too much.

 

I think that is a whole bunch of nonsense. Soriano is a bad baseball player in a mediocre lineup. He should expect to have to move around. In his case, the vast majority of his time has been in the 6th or 7th hole, which are virtually indistinguishable from a player's perspective. Being a 5/6/7 hitter isn't like he's going from 1/4/8. He just can't hit. No excuses about where in the order.

 

Unbelievable. It's like if you say anything beyond trashing the guy certain people here assume you're praising his hitting ability.

 

What it comes down to is that he's simply not very good, however, he's not eat 50 some mil bad. If he can still hit some home runs and hit lefties, if you're not going to get anything at all in return, may as well just keep him as a platoon guy or bench bat. If it comes to a point where he's blocking a better option, or a better option becomes available through trade, then they can consider eating the rest of his salary, but as of now, theres really no point in eating all that money to give a spot to Reed Johnson or Lou Montanez.

[Sammy Sofa]

What it comes down to is that he's simply not very good, however, he's not eat 50 some mil bad. If he can still hit some home runs and hit lefties, if you're not going to get anything at all in return, may as well just keep him as a platoon guy or bench bat. If it comes to a point where he's blocking a better option, or a better option becomes available through trade, then they can consider eating the rest of his salary, but as of now, theres really no point in eating all that money to give a spot to Reed Johnson or Lou Montanez.

 

Exactly. When he's useless or he's blocking a better option, boom, he's gone.

[minnesotacubsfan]

If the manager covered up the lineup card and just told the guy "Hey, you, it's your turn to hit," what percentage of major league players would know if they were batting 6th or 7th?

 

yea, hiding the lineup card will completely blank the players mind and he will have NO IDEA where he is batting. No way he can count. or follow game situations. no sir, the line up card holds magical powers over batters.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If the manager covered up the lineup card and just told the guy "Hey, you, it's your turn to hit," what percentage of major league players would know if they were batting 6th or 7th?

 

yea, hiding the lineup card will completely blank the players mind and he will have NO IDEA where he is batting. No way he can count. or follow game situations. no sir, the line up card holds magical powers over batters.

 

Do they have the actual ability to follow the game situation? Sure.

 

Would they? I bet not. They have no reason to notice or care.

[minnesotacubsfan]

If the manager covered up the lineup card and just told the guy "Hey, you, it's your turn to hit," what percentage of major league players would know if they were batting 6th or 7th?

 

yea, hiding the lineup card will completely blank the players mind and he will have NO IDEA where he is batting. No way he can count. or follow game situations. no sir, the line up card holds magical powers over batters.

 

Do they have the actual ability to follow the game situation? Sure.

 

Would they? I bet not. They have no reason to notice or care.

 

wut

[Cubswin11]

I've wanted Soriano gone for a long time. Personally, I don't have anything against Soriano the person but I hate the player, I always have. He was paid very well by the Cubs to be a difference maker and he was that for 3 years but since that time he stopped running, never played a good defense, and has mental lapses during games. His numbers are only going to get worse and I'd rather take a chance on some AAAA player than have a guy like that on the team.

 

Ridiculous. You don't cut a guy who can still be useful just because you don't like him. He still put up a .271 .312 .500 .812 line against LH pitchers this year. Why not just platoon him?

If he's already complaining about batting 7th don't you think he's going to complain about being platooned? Also, though the numbers against lefties are slightly above average I fully expect his numbers to be even worse next year. I'd rather let Brett Jackson take up LF full-time or find a better replacement than have Soriano there against lefties and taking a roster spot to do so. That's my opinion of course.

 

If Jackson is in LF and Soriano is cut to make you feel better, who is playing the other OF spot? Where is this better replacement coming from? Are we passing on Fielder/Pujols because we have to spend money on the OF to satisfy Soriano's bloodlust?

There should be a decent amount of OF free agents next year that would come cheap and be better than Soriano.

Soriano is 37th in all of MLB OF with a OPS of .748 and tied for 13th with 25 HR. Certainly not numbers that justify his salary but I wouldn't say there will there will be a decent amount of FA available that will be able to duplicate or do better than those numbers.

 

The only FA OF this offseason is pretty bad, the only OF who had higher OPS' than Soriano this year are

 

Beltran (.920)

Swisher (.821) Yankees have a club option

Willingham (.814)

Francoeur (.805)

Cuddyer (.803)

 

Then there is a group that includes Fukudome, Juan Rivera, David Dejesus (wouldn't be a bad platoon option with Soriano actually), Ibanez, and Ludwick who all have OPS' .030 points or more lower than Soriano's.

 

I still think Soriano is a useful player, salary aside, he just needs to be used smarter. Fewer starts against RHP (at least those he has bad splits against), maybe a little more rest (day games after night games not playing too many games in a row), late game defense replacement, etc.

[biittner77]

If the manager covered up the lineup card and just told the guy "Hey, you, it's your turn to hit," what percentage of major league players would know if they were batting 6th or 7th?

 

yea, hiding the lineup card will completely blank the players mind and he will have NO IDEA where he is batting. No way he can count. or follow game situations. no sir, the line up card holds magical powers over batters.

 

Do they have the actual ability to follow the game situation? Sure.

 

Would they? I bet not. They have no reason to notice or care.

 

wut

 

Baseball players are widely considered the dumbest of all pro athletes.

 

The responsibilities of batting 5,6 or 7 are all identical. I could see being upset batting 8th or becoming more pull conscious batting 4th but the difference between 5th and 7th is all about ego.Everyone in the Cubs lineup should feel slighted that Barney bats 2nd since he doesn't get on base or have any power.

[SouthSideRyan]

Baseball players are widely considered the dumbest of all pro athletes.

 

Are they? Pro athletes in general are about as dumb as da bum, but I don't see what separates any one from the other. (Though I guess NFL players have at least 3 years "college education" so maybe they're set apart from the rest.) On the flip side you have hockey players with just as little education as baseball players, (baseball being brought down due to being able to sign non US-Canadian players at 16) and I believe the NBA has the highest rate of bankruptcy after leaving the league.

[davearm2]

Yet again, I'm not saying any player should just hit in one spot. I'm saying in this case he had too many PA spread across three spots. That's not saying a player can't do that, but I think with a lot of guys there is a threshold where it becomes too much.

 

I think that is a whole bunch of nonsense. Soriano is a bad baseball player in a mediocre lineup. He should expect to have to move around. In his case, the vast majority of his time has been in the 6th or 7th hole, which are virtually indistinguishable from a player's perspective. Being a 5/6/7 hitter isn't like he's going from 1/4/8. He just can't hit. No excuses about where in the order.

 

Unbelievable. It's like if you say anything beyond trashing the guy certain people here assume you're praising his hitting ability.

Nobody's assuming you're praising Soriano's hitting ability.

 

We're calling you out on your BS theory that moving between 5 6 and 7 in the lineup is some huge burden, and gosh, no wonder Soriano struggled being asked to do something so difficult as that.

[Sammy Sofa]

Not what I said. Stop trying so hard. I said I understand why he's complaining, and that for some players it can possibly be a detriment, not that it was the actual reason for his decline.

[davearm2]

almost any player, regardless of ability or skillset, is going to struggle in at least one spot if they're being bounced across at least 3 spots in the lineup

:shrug:

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, see the "one spot" part?

[davearm2]

Yeah, see the "one spot" part?

LOL I see.

 

So your theory is that Soriano struggled in "one spot" because of the relentless and onerous lineup shuffling, and struggled in all of the rest for some other reason(s)... possibly because he can't hit.

 

Curious, which spot was which?

[Sammy Sofa]

No, you're not curious, because it's obvious to anyone who takes two seconds to look to see where he was worst.

 

Here, I'll spell it out for you: personally, I don't think it's a good idea to shuffle guys around more than is necessary. I especially don't think it's a good idea with flawed, declining hitters. He showed he could be serviceable hitting 6th last year, and he seemed fine with it, so I have no idea why they would have given him so many starts hitting 5th this year. As I've already stated, my main issue with all of this is Quade's crappy, inconsistent lineups more than anything else. The only time it would have made sense to have Soriano hitting 5th is the couple of times he want on a hot streak, and the numbers reflect that wasn't how it went down.

 

And Soriano "struggled" at varying levels everywhere because he's a flawed, declining hitter. Bouncing him around needlessly, even just between 5-7, potentially just acerbates that issue. Do I know that to be a fact? Of course not, and I never said it was. It's just my opinion. You're trying really, really hard to make this something it isn't.

[MPrior]

So this is my first post in a LONG time, and I apologize if this point has been made ad nauseum all across the board (I admit I haven't been paying much attention), but Soriano probably isn't as bad as this past year indicates. Now, he's not particularly good, either, but he was fairly unlucky this year - he had a .266 BABIP, the lowest of his career in a full season, accompanying a 19.8% LD percentage.

 

There is a disturbing trend in his plate discipline numbers (and a corresponding dip in his walk percentage from what it had been in 2008-2010), but if he just regresses to the mean a little next year (fingers crossed), he'll be useful. Just not anywhere near worth his contract.

 

Basically, I'm not really adding anything new to the conversation: like many have said, it would be pretty dumb to just drop him, since he's not blocking anyone better, and he still has some value. I just added some numbers to the mix.

 

As far as the lineup construction thing goes, I really doubt it had much impact on his performance. I'm sure he'd be happier hitting more consistently in the 6th spot (or higher, I suppose), so I guess Quade could have appeased him a little and just left the lineup card the way it was. My inclination, though, is to think that he wouldn't have hit any better in that situation.

[questionmarkgrace]

No, you're not curious, because it's obvious to anyone who takes two seconds to look to see where he was worst.

 

Here, I'll spell it out for you: personally, I don't think it's a good idea to shuffle guys around more than is necessary. I especially don't think it's a good idea with flawed, declining hitters. He showed he could be serviceable hitting 6th last year, and he seemed fine with it, so I have no idea why they would have given him so many starts hitting 5th this year. As I've already stated, my main issue with all of this is Quade's crappy, inconsistent lineups more than anything else. The only time it would have made sense to have Soriano hitting 5th is the couple of times he want on a hot streak, and the numbers reflect that wasn't how it went down.

 

And Soriano "struggled" at varying levels everywhere because he's a flawed, declining hitter. Bouncing him around needlessly, even just between 5-7, potentially just acerbates that issue. Do I know that to be a fact? Of course not, and I never said it was. It's just my opinion. You're trying really, really hard to make this something it isn't.

 

Between Lou and Quade our lineups have been all over the place. Hopefully when Quade gets canned we can get some consistency. Soriano is definetly one of those guys who need not be moved around. Preferably put him in a spot where he can see alot of fastballs and leave him alone.

[CUBZ99]

Soriano seems like a worse player because of the contract he signed. When you look at his stats at the end of the year, they certainly aren't sexy, but they are not terrible. His OPS ranked him 6th in the NL for LF and only three of the LF ahead of him were significantly better. (Braun, Holliday, Gonzalez).

 

If the Cubs are looking to unload one of their OFers I would rather they trade Marlon Byrd.

[jersey cubs fan]

Soriano seems like a worse player because of the contract he signed. When you look at his stats at the end of the year, they certainly aren't sexy, but they are not terrible. His OPS ranked him 6th in the NL for LF and only three of the LF ahead of him were significantly better. (Braun, Holliday, Gonzalez).

 

If the Cubs are looking to unload one of their OFers I would rather they trade Marlon Byrd.

 

That is a SLG heavy OPS which is much less valuable. Byrd is essentially the same player at much lower price. While his contract makes him look worse than he is, you can't just ignore the contract and pretend he's better than he is. He's a highly paid veteran corner outfielder and he did a horrible job at fulfilling that position.

[mookie]

The Cubs are still undecided as to whether they want to ship the final three years of Alfonso Soriano's 8-YR/$136 million contract.

"I’m still here, part of the Chicago Cubs," Soriano said. "We’ll see what happens in the offseason. I hope they find a good GM, and we can be contenders next year. If not, I don’t want to be on another losing team. So I hope that they want to build and can build it the right way." The Cubs next general manager will be working with payroll that has not been available in recent years, as Aramis Ramirez ($14.6 million), Kosuke Fukudome ($12.5 million), Carlos Silva ($11.5 million), and Carlos Pena ($10 million) all have expiring contracts.

Source: Chicago Sun-Times Sep 30 - 12:41 PM

 

Soriano for GM? He seemed to understand that the 2008 Cubs weren't built to win a 5 game series. Maybe he has a broader skill set that no one has tapped into before?

 

SORIANO FOR GM !!!

[rocket]

how the hell were the 2008 cubs not built to win a 5 game series?

[SouthSideRyan]

how the hell were the 2008 cubs not built to win a 5 game series?

 

They were 0 for 1 in 5 game serieses that year.