Cubs "not motivated" to move Pena

[Sammy Sofa]

I'll bet nobody wanted Johnson.

 

That's certainly possible. But somebody should have been.

 

Why? He's a platoon player with chronic back problems who isn't very good defensively anymore.

[dew1679666265]

There is no way aramis would have garnered a mid tier prospect if Beltran grabbed a top prospect. Don't play ignorant. The cubs never made him available and really, that mid tier prospect claim was never confirmed anywhere outside of this board.

 

Plus we have guys tweeting that Bryd would have brought a nice haul.

 

I tend to agree with this that the tweet was incorrect and the guy didn't know what he was talking about. But I also don't think he would have brought multiple, major league ready top prospects. I wonder, though, why you don't believe that tweet about Aramis and you do believe one tweet claiming that Byrd would have brought a big haul. I don't tend to buy that either, since he's going to be 34 next year and, while valuable, he isn't a top of the line player.

 

Why is one more credible than another?

 

Marmol and Marshal probably would have gotten us back what we needed. Especially marshal because he is cheap and under control for two years. So yes its not out of the realm of possibility that Hendry simply wanted to keep these guys as a ploy for attracting free agents. indeed it seems highly likely.

 

Like I said, it's possible Marmol would have brought back what you suggested, but there's no guarantee. And I don't agree with criticizing Hendry just because you think Marmol might have brought that in trade without a shred of evidence. On Marshall, no chance he brings top major league ready talent. He's a setup man with no real closing experience and without dominant stuff - that doesn't net great returns on the market.

 

What bourne doesnt have is power at a non-traditional power position, which teams value irrationally high. Bryd offers that and my guess would be close to matching Bourne on WAR given last year.

 

In 10 years, Byrd has been worth 17.2 WAR. In 6 years, Bourn has been worth 14.6. Bourn is a more valuable player no matter how you look at it and when you factor in his age, it's logical to conclude that he would command a much bigger package than Byrd would.

[GTAG]

Today is the antithesis of the trade deadline 2004... getting Nomar was one of the happiest days of my Cubs Fan life. Today just reminds me of the torment that it is to be a Cubs fan. Bottoms up fellas (and ladies)...

[questionmarkgrace]

You're overrating what Marshall would bring back and underselling how much Marmol's awful contract is going to negate any value for him unless the Cubs pick up too much of it.

 

And you've just decimated your bullpen. I could see moving one of them if miraculously a good deal came along, but both? Bad idea, especially Marshall.

 

Yeah moving one or the other would be ideal. Marshall in my opinion would have been the best to move because of the emergence of Russell. The rangers gave up two top guys for Mike Adams. Wieland the further along of the two is less regarded but is having a breakout year and would have been a great pick up for the cubs. The cubs probably could have gotten him and a lesser guy. The padres in return got wieland and Erlin who is considered a top 35 prospect in all of baseball.

[javy knows my name]

You're overrating what Marshall would bring back and underselling how much Marmol's awful contract is going to negate any value for him unless the Cubs pick up too much of it.

 

And you've just decimated your bullpen. I could see moving one of them if miraculously a good deal came along, but both? Bad idea, especially Marshall.

 

Yeah moving one or the other would be ideal. Marshall in my opinion would have been the best to move because of the emergence of Russell. The rangers gave up two top guys for Mike Adams. Wieland the further along of the two is less regarded but is having a breakout year and would have been a great pick up for the cubs. The cubs probably could have gotten him and a lesser guy. The padres in return got wieland and Erlin who is considered a top 35 prospect in all of baseball.

 

Marshal <> Mike Adams in any way. Stop with this.

[Guest]

On the one hand, I'm glad that the Cubs plan to compete in 2012 and therefore want to hang onto the player who will realistically help them compete next year. So I'm not sorry that Marshall, Byrd, Aramis, Zambrano, Dempster and Marmol are still part of the team. If any of these players are moved, the team would just have to sign a player during the offseason to replace their production. Given the FA market, it is likely that the replacements would be either worse, more expensive or both. Any of the players on this list could have been moved in the right deal, but it would have taken a pretty good haul for me to move any of them under the circumstances.

 

I didn't even want to have them consider moving Castro or Soto.

 

I also expected that we would get so little value in return for Baker / Johnson that it wouldn't be worth trading them.

 

I was hoping and praying that they'd find a taker for Soriano, but alas, there were no idiots out there desperate enough to take on the deal.

 

Woody had his no trade and I honestly didn't really want him moved, anyway.

 

The only two players I was really hoping to trade were Fukudome and Pena. Pena will likely climb a bit higher in the rankings so that we can get a supplemental pick in return for him. If that's the case, I wouldn't move him unless I could get a player better than what I'd judge we could get with that pick.

 

So I guess everyone criticizing Hendry should call me an idiot, as well.

 

PS - I do hope they just go ahead and cut Grabow, though they'll probably hang onto him in hopes of swinging a waiver deal.

[NewUserName]

On the one hand, I'm glad that the Cubs plan to compete in 2012 and therefore want to hang onto the player who will realistically help them compete next year. So I'm not sorry that Marshall, Byrd, Aramis, Zambrano, Dempster and Marmol are still part of the team. If any of these players are moved, the team would just have to sign a player during the offseason to replace their production. Given the FA market, it is likely that the replacements would be either worse, more expensive or both. Any of the players on this list could have been moved in the right deal, but it would have taken a pretty good haul for me to move any of them under the circumstances.

 

I didn't even want to have them consider moving Castro or Soto.

 

I also expected that we would get so little value in return for Baker / Johnson that it wouldn't be worth trading them.

 

I was hoping and praying that they'd find a taker for Soriano, but alas, there were no idiots out there desperate enough to take on the deal.

 

Woody had his no trade and I honestly didn't really want him moved, anyway.

 

The only two players I was really hoping to trade were Fukudome and Pena. Pena will likely climb a bit higher in the rankings so that we can get a supplemental pick in return for him. If that's the case, I wouldn't move him unless I could get a player better than what I'd judge we could get with that pick.

 

So I guess everyone criticizing Hendry should call me an idiot, as well.

 

PS - I do hope they just go ahead and cut Grabow, though they'll probably hang onto him in hopes of swinging a waiver deal.

 

I pretty much agree with this. Lets be honest, what did we expect to get with next to last place talent.

[d_money]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

[Guest]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

[Backtobanks]

The other GMs probably played hardball with Hendry now with the thought that most of the players that were available (Pena, Byrd, Johnson, Baker?, Grabow, Soriano, Zambrano, etc) will be available on waivers if they decide they need to pick someone up. No use overpaying now when you can still get the same player(s) for cheap in a few weeks.

[Sammy Sofa]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

 

Add to that why he thinks Dempster is a #3 at best.

[XZero771679666304]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

 

Add to that why he thinks Dempster is a #3 at best.

 

Because of their ERAs and W/L, duh

[Sammy Sofa]

I like how he thinks something like Wilson/Garza/Dempster/Z/whatever is apparently barely removed from crap.

[Rob]

I'll bet nobody wanted Johnson.

 

That's certainly possible. But somebody should have been.

 

Why? He's a platoon player with chronic back problems who isn't very good defensively anymore.

 

Didn't say teams should be falling over themselves to acquire him. But he's a nice complementary piece. Hits lefties well and is fine defensively in the corners as well as able to handle CF (though to what degree is debatable).

[Sammy Sofa]

I'll bet nobody wanted Johnson.

 

That's certainly possible. But somebody should have been.

 

Why? He's a platoon player with chronic back problems who isn't very good defensively anymore.

 

Didn't say teams should be falling over themselves to acquire him. But he's a nice complementary piece. Hits lefties well and is fine defensively in the corners as well as able to handle CF (though to what degree is debatable).

 

There are guys like that all over baseball. I mean, I get your point, but the likely reality is that nobody wanted him vs. the Cubs not trying to trade him. Someone like Baker I get because he's back next year. Johnson doesn't fit into the Cubs' plans at all, so I'm sure they would have been happy to give him up if anyone was offering anything.

[d_money]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

 

Add to that why he thinks Dempster is a #3 at best.

 

Because of their ERAs and W/L, duh

 

OK, so who's the #1 right now? Enlighten me. Z's a 3-4.

[Tracer Bullet]

And Baker's name keeps coming up because fans are frustrated by an organization that thinks Baker is some big contributor. It is not necessarily Baker, it is the thought process of the organization that values a guy that can't beat out a guy like Darwin Barney - a guy that a lot of fans see as Ryan Theriot part II.

 

And this justifies trading Baker...how? The organization values him because he's useful, and he is. Again, question marks at potentially both 2B and 3B next year. Baker's abilities against lefties and being able to play both spots makes him valuable to the Cubs as a bench and platoon player. On the flipside, his skills are limited to the point that he's not going to net much of anything in return. There's no pressing need to trade him now since, like Byrd, he can just be traded for a likely meaningless return next year instead of this year.

 

 

The Baker stuff probably keeps coming up b/c Hendry said he was "untouchable." Most fans apply that tag sparingly. Hendry more likely meant that Baker's at least as valuable to the Cubs in 2012 as he is to any other team (or at least what they're willing to pay.

 

 

He then went on to say that not tearing the roster apart at the deadline is part of hoping to entice Fielder to sign with us - the thinking is if we sold off all our pieces we'd be a less attractive destination.

 

That is an angle I hadn't considered. FA's generally follow the money, but you don't want to be forced to offer something above and beyond like a Soriano or Werth deal in order to get a big FA to come either.

 

 

This is a great point.

 

Is it also possible that Hendry doesn't have authority to make any significant moves (b/c he's going to be fired at the end of the year)?

[XZero771679666304]

What I've learned this year is that we need starting pitching in the worst way. Davis, Lopez, Coleman, etc.. only point to the fact that we have no one ready in the minors that are major league ready. The dreams of Dempster/Z/Garza as a solid 1,2,3 (not in that order) are false - they are 3's, 4's and 5's - at best.

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

 

Add to that why he thinks Dempster is a #3 at best.

 

Because of their ERAs and W/L, duh

 

OK, so who's the #1 right now? Enlighten me. Z's a 3-4.

 

We don't have a #1, but that's a far cry from Z/Demp/Garza being 3/4/5s. Garza is at least a #2, Dempster is a 2/3 and Z is a 3/4 at this point, IMO. Add Wilson to that and you're doing pretty well.

[Rob]

I'll bet nobody wanted Johnson.

 

That's certainly possible. But somebody should have been.

 

Why? He's a platoon player with chronic back problems who isn't very good defensively anymore.

 

Didn't say teams should be falling over themselves to acquire him. But he's a nice complementary piece. Hits lefties well and is fine defensively in the corners as well as able to handle CF (though to what degree is debatable).

 

There are guys like that all over baseball. I mean, I get your point, but the likely reality is that nobody wanted him vs. the Cubs not trying to trade him. Someone like Baker I get because he's back next year. Johnson doesn't fit into the Cubs' plans at all, so I'm sure they would have been happy to give him up if anyone was offering anything.

 

$5 says if Hendry is back next year, so is Reed Johnson. Something tells me somebody was willing to offer something small, but Hendry didn't want to trade him for that little since it might hurt his chances of bringing him back next year.

[Sammy Sofa]

I seriously doubt that. Again, we're talking about Reed Johnson. He's making less than a million bucks this year.

[questionmarkgrace]

 

If trading Marmol, Marshall and any other "untouchable" player would've netted us some solid young starting pitching - Hendry's made a poor mistake. What good is Marmol if we can't hand hime the lead?

 

Comments about CJ Wilson etc.. in the offseason will cost serious money and could be bad contracts. Go get Wilson - but we're gonna need another impact starter in the FA market.

 

Why do you think Garza is a #3 pitcher (at best)?

 

Add to that why he thinks Dempster is a #3 at best.

 

Because of their ERAs and W/L, duh

 

OK, so who's the #1 right now? Enlighten me. Z's a 3-4.

 

We don't have a #1, but that's a far cry from Z/Demp/Garza being 3/4/5s. Garza is at least a #2, Dempster is a 2/3 and Z is a 3/4 at this point, IMO. Add Wilson to that and you're doing pretty well.

 

 

yes but Wilson plus Fielder - Aramis does not equal 23 + wins. We are currently 23 games under. Like I said Fielder + Baker/Farhety is a wash from Aram and Pena this year. Maybe a slight up tick. Wilson certainly helps but he doesnt make us 23 games better. Plus wells should not be an option to start next year. he should be the 6th starter/ long man. We need two pitchers not one. Or a heck of a lot of improvement from what is currently here offensively and pitching wise, which I think at this point is hard to ask for.

[Sammy Sofa]

You're really worried about the 5th starter.

[questionmarkgrace]

You're really worried about the 5th starter.

 

I'm worried about a team that will be dependent upon pitching with little to no improvement on offense.

[Tarver]

Hendry's retention was Ricketts doing.

 

I'm starting to kind of hope Hendry is extended, just to see how far some of his supporters around here will go to defend it.

 

What the what?

 

What supporters?

 

Perhaps perennial Cub spin doctors would be a better term.

 

And I just hope Rob is right re: Hendry having his hands tied due to a lame duck status. This whole argument could have been avoided had he installed a new FO office sooner.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm pretty confident we can "gamble" on the 5th starter position somehow being covered between Wells, Cashner and McNutt.