Furcal to Cardinals

[Sammy Sofa]

$22 million is pretty far from his asking price of $30 million. Couple that with them apparently not being willing to offer him more than 6 years, the only way I could see him taking something like $22 million is if they bend and give him the 10 years he wants. They're going to have to either bend on on the money or the years; he can shave a little off either way for the hometown team, but I'd have to imagine he'll be getting a ton of pressure from the union to not settle like that.

 

And these other changes really don't sound all that impressive. Again, Rasmus gone = downgrade. In your scenario Furcal's bat is essentially replacing Berkman's = downgrade. Jackson is arguably an upgrade over Carpenter at this point, but then you have the question of what to do with Wainwright. His deal is effectively up this year as well unless they decide to go ahead with the team options in 2012 and 2013.

 

If anything it seems like they're gathering pieces to potentially build a team post-Pujols as opposed to one "for" him.

[XZero771679666304]

Jackson is also only signed through this year. Heath Bell is only signed through this year. So their plans to make a better team to get him to stay is a bunch of guys that they'll have to pay a ton of money to to keep next year, either via re-signings or options...and trading away Rasmus.

 

Brilliant strategy. And Pujols is going to, what, stay out of the goodness of his heart? What about Carpenter? Either they use the team option for 2012 and pay him, too, or they let him go and downgrade the starting rotation. How are they going to pay Pujols anywhere near what he wants by adding all of these salaries?

 

Berkman will be a FA too. So if they add Bell, then they have he, Berkman, Jackson and Pujols as FAs, and Furcal and Carpenter with sizeable options.

 

Berkman is going to be looking at a sizeable bump, Furcal does suck, and there's no guarantee they'll be able to keep Carpenter, who is getting old anyway. Jackson is a Boras client, so they won't be retaining him for cheap.

[questionmarkgrace]

$22 million is pretty far from his asking price of $30 million. Couple that with them apparently not being willing to offer him more than 6 years, the only way I could see him taking something like $22 million is if they bend and give him the 10 years he wants. They're going to have to either bend on on the money or the years; he can shave a little off either way for the hometown team, but I'd have to imagine he'll be getting a ton of pressure from the union to not settle like that.

 

And these other changes really don't sound all that impressive. Again, Rasmus gone = downgrade. In your scenario Furcal's bat is essentially replacing Berkman's = downgrade. Jackson is arguably an upgrade over Carpenter at this point, but then you have the question of what to do with Wainwright. His deal is effectively up this year as well unless they decide to go ahead with the team options in 2012 and 2013.

 

If anything it seems like they're gathering pieces to potentially build a team post-Pujols as opposed to one "for" him.

 

Yeah, I could see that especially with all of the FA's they would garner quite a few draft picks. On the other hand if they resign pujols, sign Jackson and carpenter for cheap, then maybe add willingham also for cheap; I still dont see how we are better than them with Fielder, Wilson, and no Ramirez. Pena and Ramirez this year could very feasibly be more productive than Fielder and Baker/Flarhety platoon. I think most people would be pretty happy with 20 hr's and 50 rbi from that platoon at this point next year. If we can agree that first base and third base changes are close to a wash with possibly a slight upgrade; I think most would agree that we are more than one pitcher away from competing.

[chuckywang]

I'm pretty sure this is D Lee's nightmare scenario.

[Formerly Snayke]

I'm not even following the Cardinals anymore, but unless Furcal pitches I fail to see how this puts them over the top.

 

Of course, since I'm not following them anymore, they will win the GD pennant and La Russa will be back next season.

[NonProfitCow]

I'm not even following the Cardinals anymore, but unless Furcal pitches I fail to see how this puts them over the top.

 

Of course, since I'm not following them anymore, they will win the GD pennant and La Russa will be back next season.

If Furcal can OPS .725 with completely average D he's a 1.5 win upgrade over Theriot. He gets hot and it's over 2. It's a pretty sweet deal considering he's being had for a non prospect OF and a couple million. The team is likely better for the year and no worse off for next year with this move.

[illiniguy]

I'm not even following the Cardinals anymore, but unless Furcal pitches I fail to see how this puts them over the top.

 

Of course, since I'm not following them anymore, they will win the GD pennant and La Russa will be back next season.

We haven't won a pennant in 60 plus years. Unreal you'd have this attitude on this board.

[TruffleShuffle]

hopefully furcal plays really well over the last 2 months and the cards are dumb enough to pick up his 2012 option.

[d_money]

I agree re: the amateur side. But how can a guy like Jeff Baker be "untouchable"? Come on. He's a role player. Same thing for DeWitt. If we're not picking up Ramirez contract option next year - we better sign him to a 3 year deal worth approx. $25M - if he wants to be here so badly.

 

is this a joke?

 

No joke here. If he has a $16M option for next year combined with the scarce # of power 3B's available - he's looking for a multi-year deal, which could net him 3/$30M in the open market. Even if he wants to be here so badly, he'll give a discount. Plus, we have absolutely no one internally to meet/beat his production.

[TruffleShuffle]

adrian beltre just got a 6 year $96 million contract last offseason and you think that aramis ramirez is going to take a 3 year $25 million offer from the cubs.

[d_money]

I guess we'll see how badly he wants to be here.

[TruffleShuffle]

well yeah, we'll see if he wants to accept a ridiculous lowball offer or go somewhere will a team will play him close to market value.

[NonProfitCow]

well yeah, we'll see if he wants to accept a ridiculous lowball offer or go somewhere will a team will play him close to market value and win baseball games.

[TruffleShuffle]

well he's lazy so he probably doesn't like winning... just too much effort

[Sammy Sofa]

$22 million is pretty far from his asking price of $30 million. Couple that with them apparently not being willing to offer him more than 6 years, the only way I could see him taking something like $22 million is if they bend and give him the 10 years he wants. They're going to have to either bend on on the money or the years; he can shave a little off either way for the hometown team, but I'd have to imagine he'll be getting a ton of pressure from the union to not settle like that.

 

And these other changes really don't sound all that impressive. Again, Rasmus gone = downgrade. In your scenario Furcal's bat is essentially replacing Berkman's = downgrade. Jackson is arguably an upgrade over Carpenter at this point, but then you have the question of what to do with Wainwright. His deal is effectively up this year as well unless they decide to go ahead with the team options in 2012 and 2013.

 

If anything it seems like they're gathering pieces to potentially build a team post-Pujols as opposed to one "for" him.

 

Yeah, I could see that especially with all of the FA's they would garner quite a few draft picks. On the other hand if they resign pujols, sign Jackson and carpenter for cheap, then maybe add willingham also for cheap; I still dont see how we are better than them with Fielder, Wilson, and no Ramirez. Pena and Ramirez this year could very feasibly be more productive than Fielder and Baker/Flarhety platoon. I think most people would be pretty happy with 20 hr's and 50 rbi from that platoon at this point next year. If we can agree that first base and third base changes are close to a wash with possibly a slight upgrade; I think most would agree that we are more than one pitcher away from competing.

 

I'm not arguing that the Cubs have the more appealing team. I'm arguing that the Cubs have the mean to sign him closer to or actually meeting his contract expectations. You're the one who presented the "they're building a team for him option," which doesn't make much sense because it's not a very good team, but will be a very expensive team AND he'll have to drastically reduce his contract demands.

[dew1679666265]

its looking less and less like Pujols is leaving the cardinals especially considering the team they are putting around him. I personally think he stays. But the pirates are certainly up and coming and will continue to get better with clint hurdle at the helm. plus they seem to own us these days. And the reds are looking perennial. I think we have seen the real Randy Wells for the last year and a half now. There are too many question marks in that line up. So if you are talking about competing for third place then maybe because I dont see this team competing with the Cards and the Reds next year.

 

Cardinals: As others have said, Pujols, Carpenter, Berkman, Furcal, Jackson all have their contracts up at the end of the year. The Cards and Pujols weren't anywhere close on terms before the season and if they lose him, that team looks really, really bad. If they give in and pay him anywhere near his asking price, they're looking at around $20-something million minus arbitration raises (so more like $12-15 million I'd guess) to replace Carpenter, Berkman, Furcal and Jackson. With all those players and Pujols, they're all of 6 games over .500 this year.

 

Brewers: The Brewers currently lead the division at 9 games over .500 (still the second worst division leading record in baseball). After this season, they are almost certain to lose Fielder. It's pretty realistic to see them hovering around .500 next year with the same team minus Prince.

 

Pirates: The darlings of contending teams this year, everybody's talking about the Pirates, but they're only 4 games over .500. They have one regular position player with an OPS over .800 (McCutcheon) and are winning largely on Jeff Karstens and Paul Maholm pitching out of their minds. They're pretty young, so the rest of the team could get better, but that would be offset by potential (likely?) regressions from Maholm and Karstens. They'll also have to pick up the options on guys like Maholm and Doumit to keep them.

 

Reds: The Reds are currently 4 games under .500 and have an awful rotation outside of Cueto (awesome) and Leake (average). They won 91 games last year, but haven't won more than 80 in any season since 2000 other than that and are below .500 at the trade deadline - hard to see them as perennial winners. Their offense isn't all that young, with just four regulars under 30 and one of them is Paul Janish. Votto and Bruce are really good, but it'd be hard to see this team make any kind of big jump by next season. plus they have to pick up Phillips' $12 million club option to keep him next year along with Cordero's $12 million club option - that puts their 2012 payroll at $74 million before considering arbitration raises. Their payroll is $80 million this year.

 

Astros: They're currently 7 games behind the Cubs and just traded one of their best players. If you don't think the Cubs can make a big jump next year, there's really no way the Astros could.

 

The Cubs will have to make a big jump, obviously, but have more resources than any other team in the division and the best players in FA match up perfectly with their needs (Fielder/Pujols and Wilson). I simply don't see strong indications that the Central is going to be anything but extremely mediocre next year.

 

As for Randy Wells, he had a 4.26 ERA and 3.94 xFIP last year. His ERA this year is 6.16 and his xFIP is 4.37. Nearly every peripheral is worse this year from last year and significantly so in some cases. The 2010 Wells was much closer to the 2009 Wells and that kind of production is perfectly fine as the 5th best starter on the team.

[NonProfitCow]

well he's lazy so he probably doesn't like winning... just too much effort

I forgot how brown he was.

[JimSorgi]

I guess we'll see how badly he wants to be here.

Good idea. A player shows us amazing loyalty despite fans and media criticizing him constantly, so what should we do? Tell him to either sign an awful deal or [expletive] off. Just brilliant.

[Formerly Snayke]

I'm not even following the Cardinals anymore, but unless Furcal pitches I fail to see how this puts them over the top.

 

Of course, since I'm not following them anymore, they will win the GD pennant and La Russa will be back next season.

We haven't won a pennant in 60 plus years. Unreal you'd have this attitude on this board.

 

I refuse to support incompetence and the sacrifice of long-term success so that the whims of a petulant, 67-year-old crybaby are met. I am tired of seeing otherwise valuable pieces reduced to [expletive] because La Russa can't keep his [expletive] mouth shut. I am tired of seeing an organization that bows to someone who feels the need to swing their dick around in the media and show everyone how much smarter he is when they have reached the playoffs once in the past four seasons.

 

I'm tired of it. Until they dump the jackass I'm sitting out.

[BeerHere]

The 2011 Cubs are a lot more than one impact bat and starter from competing in 2012. Fielder + CJ + 2011 team - Aram, Pena, Wells is a .500 team at best even if Cashner comes back and pitches well. Maybe that sneaks into the playoffs but that team gets bounced in the first round (again). I've said this before - if you build a team to win the division maybe you do it. If you build a team to win the WS you have a much better chance. the Cubs aren't competing with the Cardinal and Brewers. The Cubs are competing with the Cardinals, Brewers, Red Sox, Yankees, Jays, Tigers etc. Winning the division shouldn't be the goal. I am frustrated as hell at this team and want to see changes across the board.

[SouthSideRyan]

The 2011 Cubs are a lot more than one impact bat and starter from competing in 2012. Fielder + CJ + 2011 team - Aram, Pena, Wells is a .500 team at best even if Cashner comes back and pitches well. Maybe that sneaks into the playoffs but that team gets bounced in the first round (again). I've said this before - if you build a team to win the division maybe you do it. If you build a team to win the WS you have a much better chance. the Cubs aren't competing with the Cardinal and Brewers. The Cubs are competing with the Cardinals, Brewers, Red Sox, Yankees, Jays, Tigers etc. Winning the division shouldn't be the goal. I am frustrated as hell at this team and want to see changes across the board to make me feel better

[SouthSideRyan]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that this year's team can't be turned into one of the best teams in baseball this offseason. So your solution is to make the team even worse?

[BeerHere]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that this year's team can't be turned into one of the best teams in baseball this offseason. So your solution is to make the team even worse?

What makes me feel better is a winning team. Do you honestly feel like Fielder and Wilson make this team a world series contender in 2012? That team has offensive holes at LF, RF, 2B and 3B, a 5th starter that barely pitched in 2011 due to shoulder problems, a catcher that gets on base but does little else, a manager that is in over his head and ZERO depth to cover themselves in the event of an injury to the starting staff (just like 2011). You're kidding yourself if you think two players turn this load of crap into a contender.

 

I would like to see steps taken in the right direction. I would like to see a GM that is willing to admit mistakes and cut some dead weight. You want specifics:

1. Trade Geo. Let Castillo play and use the $ savings on another starter

2. Waive Soriano

3. Sign Pujols or Fielder

4. Wilson is better than I thought, pick him up

5. If Aram picks up his option, then resign him for 2 years. If not then promote

6. Find a real goddam coach that can handle a pitching staff, the media and the locker room

7. Invest heavily in the 2012 draft since the picks will be early

Edited August 1, 2011 by BeerHere

[SouthSideRyan]

Maybe we should sign Fielder and Wilson to some sort of extended contracts that last beyond the 2012 season.

[SouthSideRyan]

Maybe we should sign Fielder and Wilson to some sort of extended contracts that last beyond the 2012 season.

 

Is that even legal?