Aramis Snubbed?

[Tryptamine]

The guy's numbers are clearly superior to both Polanco's and Chipper's. The only person who has a case against him is Headley. How does he not even sniff a spot for the vote in?

[OleMissCub]

My guess is that it's because 7 of his 11 HR and a third of his RBI have come in the last 2 weeks.

[Tryptamine]

My guess is that it's because 7 of his 11 HR and a third of his RBI have come in the last 2 weeks.

 

Yeah that hurts him in the fan vote, but what about the coach's pick? Polanco has been god awful since April.

[OleMissCub]

but he plays for the Phillies damn you!!

[17 Seconds]

polanco makes the all-star team with a .681 ops. hilarious. chipper's is .761.

 

there is no argument to be made that either guy deserves it over aramis. it isn't even close.

 

oh well, good thing it's meaningless.

[TruffleShuffle]

The guy's numbers are clearly superior to both Polanco's and Chipper's. The only person who has a case against him is Headley. How does he not even sniff a spot for the vote in?

 

ryan roberts also has been better than aramis.

 

polanco has arguably been better, because he's obviously better in the field and on the basepaths.

 

plus it's not hard to make a case that castro didn't deserve it, so really the cubs should only have the minimum on the all-star roster, and it had to be either castro or ramirez (unless you want to make a case for marshall, but kimbrel has been better than him and was left off, and axford was also omitted)

[Tryptamine]

ryan roberts also has been better than aramis.

 

He's not a full time 3B, so I'm not sure how they'd handle that. He plays 2B and OF as well. Regardless, I don't see how Roberts has been better. He has stolen 12 bases, but Aramis leads him in AVG, OBP, OPS, SLG etc etc. Polanco on the other hand has a .681 OPS and 3 steals. He OPSed .583 in May and .545 in June. He's been absolutely terrible outside of April. Unless he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson he has no business in the all star game. The only one who has any claim in my eyes is Headley.

[TruffleShuffle]

ryan roberts also has been better than aramis.

 

He's not a full time 3B, so I'm not sure how they'd handle that. He plays 2B and OF as well. Regardless, I don't see how Roberts has been better. He has stolen 12 bases, but Aramis leads him in AVG, OBP, OPS, SLG etc etc. Polanco on the other hand has a .681 OPS and 3 steals. He OPSed .583 in May and .545 in June. He's been absolutely terrible outside of April. Unless he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson he has no business in the all star game. The only one who has any claim in my eyes is Headley.

 

nobody disagrees that aramis has been better offensively. defense and baserunning matter a lot more than you're giving them credit for. also, you're giving aramis way too much credit for having a higher SLG. OBP matters a lot more and he's just about tied in that stat with polanco and roberts.

[XZero771679666304]

ryan roberts also has been better than aramis.

 

He's not a full time 3B, so I'm not sure how they'd handle that. He plays 2B and OF as well. Regardless, I don't see how Roberts has been better. He has stolen 12 bases, but Aramis leads him in AVG, OBP, OPS, SLG etc etc. Polanco on the other hand has a .681 OPS and 3 steals. He OPSed .583 in May and .545 in June. He's been absolutely terrible outside of April. Unless he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson he has no business in the all star game. The only one who has any claim in my eyes is Headley.

 

nobody disagrees that aramis has been better offensively. defense and baserunning matter a lot more than you're giving them credit for. also, you're giving aramis way too much credit for having a higher SLG. OBP matters a lot more and he's just about tied in that stat with polanco and roberts.

 

Defense and baserunning matters, but not enough to make a cogent argument that Polanco is more valuable or even with Ramirez at this point. Not enough to make up for a .120+ disparity in OPS. Particularly at an offense first position like 3B. Plus Polanco is skating by on his April numbers. He's been flat out awful for two months now, while Ramirez is trending in the opposite direction.

 

Roberts is also trending in the wrong direction, has been an inefficient base stealer, and has only been marginally better defensively than Ramirez, according to UZR and UZR/150.

 

I'm not making a case for Aramis for the ASG (he heated up too late), but he's pretty clearly the best of the three right now, IMO.

[TruffleShuffle]

Defense and baserunning matters, but not enough to make a cogent argument that Polanco is more valuable or even with Ramirez at this point. Not enough to make up for a .120+ disparity in OPS.

 

basically it's a disparity in slugging percentage, like i mentioned before, and no it's not that hard to overcome a .120 disparity is SLG when the superior slugger is a mediocre defender and slow baserunner. fangraphs' player valuation has ramirez worth 1.8 WAR while polanco is at 1.7 WAR. anyway, polanco was voted onto the ASG roster so your real beef should be with chipper jones.

 

Particularly at an offense first position like 3B.

 

i don't really know what this means, but take a look around mlb and tell me how 3b is an offense-first position. only 8 out of 34 third basemen with 150 PA's have an ops over .800. the average line among 3b is .246/.311/.374/.685. here is a list of the positions that have a worse average OPS than third baseman:

 

pitcher

 

 

 

 

 

Plus Polanco is skating by on his April numbers. He's been flat out awful for two months now, while Ramirez is trending in the opposite direction.

 

is that the qualification, though? or is it who has been the most effective through the first half of the year?

[BeerHere]

I guess if it increases his trade value than yes I'm upset he was snubbed. Otherwise, him making the all-star team does absolutely nothing for the 2011/2012 Cubs so I couldn't care less.

[XZero771679666304]

Defense and baserunning matters, but not enough to make a cogent argument that Polanco is more valuable or even with Ramirez at this point. Not enough to make up for a .120+ disparity in OPS.

 

basically it's a disparity in slugging percentage, like i mentioned before, and no it's not that hard to overcome a .120 disparity is SLG when the superior slugger is a mediocre defender and slow baserunner. fangraphs' player valuation has ramirez worth 1.8 WAR while polanco is at 1.7 WAR. anyway, polanco was voted onto the ASG roster so your real beef should be with chipper jones.

 

Particularly at an offense first position like 3B.

 

i don't really know what this means, but take a look around mlb and tell me how 3b is an offense-first position. only 8 out of 34 third basemen with 150 PA's have an ops over .800. the average line among 3b is .246/.311/.374/.685. here is a list of the positions that have a worse average OPS than third baseman:

 

pitcher

 

 

 

 

 

Plus Polanco is skating by on his April numbers. He's been flat out awful for two months now, while Ramirez is trending in the opposite direction.

 

is that the qualification, though? or is it who has been the most effective through the first half of the year?

 

If you read my post thoroughly you'd notice I said I wasn't making an ASG case for Ramirez, but saying he's the best player right now.

 

But it has been a really weak year for third basemen. If not for the injuries/struggles of Zimmerman/Wright/Sandoval etc., we're not having this conversation.

[TruffleShuffle]

and longoria's injury, etc. i get that it's been a down year for 3b, but the idea that 3b is offense first is a long-standing myth. in reality it's a lot more like cf or 2b than the true masher positions (1b, corner of).

[Laura]

The timing wasn't right for Aramis, but

 

he's also lazy, and he saves his home runs for times when they will benefit him and not the team, and all his homeruns are meaningless, and he leads Latino uprisings within the clubhouse (very disturbing!), and he's lazy, and he injures himself on purpose because he's lazy.

 

Just ask Dave Kaplan or Barry Rozner or pretty much any mainstream media guy in Chicago.

[imb]

ryan roberts also has been better than aramis.

 

He's not a full time 3B, so I'm not sure how they'd handle that. He plays 2B and OF as well. Regardless, I don't see how Roberts has been better. He has stolen 12 bases, but Aramis leads him in AVG, OBP, OPS, SLG etc etc. Polanco on the other hand has a .681 OPS and 3 steals. He OPSed .583 in May and .545 in June. He's been absolutely terrible outside of April. Unless he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson he has no business in the all star game. The only one who has any claim in my eyes is Headley.

 

nobody disagrees that aramis has been better offensively. defense and baserunning matter a lot more than you're giving them credit for. also, you're giving aramis way too much credit for having a higher SLG. OBP matters a lot more and he's just about tied in that stat with polanco and roberts.

 

LOL. Yes, technically the fact that he leads them each in OBP by less than 0.010 means he is "just about tied." But I'm not sure what point you're going for since he's, you know, ahead of them in that category.

[TruffleShuffle]

you know what the point was.

[imb]

The point was that "yeah, he's leading in average and slugging, but don't get too excited, he's just barely leading them in on base percentage, too"?

[TruffleShuffle]

no the point was that he was only marginally ahead in OBP, which is much more important than SLG, so it's not at all surprising that superior defenders/baserunners could still have been as good or better than him in the first half.

[imb]

not if they're 150 points behind him in ops.

[TruffleShuffle]

not if they're 150 points behind him in ops.

 

they aren't.

[imb]

not if they're 150 points behind him in ops.

 

they aren't.

 

Sorry, Polanco is 125 points behind him. I hope he can run like the [expletive] wind.

 

Ryan Roberts is *only* 56 points behind him. He'd have to be one hell of a defender.

[TruffleShuffle]

Ryan Roberts is *only* 56 points behind him. He'd have to be one hell of a defender.

 

for 50 points of slugging and like 5 points of obp? not really.

[abuck1220]

well, it doesn't matter because ryan roberts isn't good defensively.

[17 Seconds]

rey ordonez named to nl all-star team (for defense)

[Brett]

Ryan Roberts is *only* 56 points behind him. He'd have to be one hell of a defender.

 

for 50 points of slugging and like 5 points of obp? not really.

 

What is the equivalent value of SLG points and OBP points? I know they're weighted in the wOBA figures, but is it like 2:1? 5:1? Surely it's not 10:1.