2011 Chicago Bulls Playoff Thread (5/26 7:30pm CST - TNT)

[bukie]

Wow. What an unpopular opinion I have. :-"

 

 

Like I said. Show me the rings. If LeBron gets multiple rings, I'll acknowledge his greatness. Call it unfair if you like. But he teamed up with 2 all-stars and DWade who is probably one of the top 5 players in the league. The NBA has no dominant teams right now. If he doesn't win multiple rings, then there's no excuse. Maybe it will happen. But until it does, he's overrated in my mind.

Looking at rings as an individual achievement in a team sport is pointless and short-sighted, no matter what the team sport is (even baseball, which is as individual as a team sport can be).

 

Well, I happen to think the same about looking at stats. This is not baseball where its 1 player against the pitcher. It's a team sport. I judge it the contribution the player makes to getting his team to win. I admit the flaws of looking at wins. But looking at the stats isn't perfect either. Look, its one thing if LeBron is playing on a crappy team. He teamed up with 2 all-stars. What's the excuse now? Oh yeah. Spoelstra and the bench. There will always be excuses until he wins, because of his gaudy stats. LeBron supporters will always have an excuse for him because they can't fathom how he's not one of the greatest of all time because the stats say so. But who says the stats are right?

 

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And this is mine. He might well win multiple championships. I'm not saying he won't. But until then, he's not one of the all-time greats.

One player does not have the ability to make a team win. Even three players may not have the ability (though Miami is trying it anyway). Treating rings as some kind of individual measure of winning is the kind of argument that makes people think Robert Horry was a better player than Charles Barkley.

[Banedon]

The worst part about the direction this thread has taken, is that my solid HIV joke is going to be buried.

 

Speaking of overrated...

 

 

Heyyy-ooooooo

[javy knows my name]

The worst part about the direction this thread has taken, is that my solid HIV joke is going to be buried.

 

Mm-mm, I gotchu

[javy knows my name]

Wow. What an unpopular opinion I have. :-"

 

 

Like I said. Show me the rings. If LeBron gets multiple rings, I'll acknowledge his greatness. Call it unfair if you like. But he teamed up with 2 all-stars and DWade who is probably one of the top 5 players in the league. The NBA has no dominant teams right now. If he doesn't win multiple rings, then there's no excuse. Maybe it will happen. But until it does, he's overrated in my mind.

Looking at rings as an individual achievement in a team sport is pointless and short-sighted, no matter what the team sport is (even baseball, which is as individual as a team sport can be).

 

You meant to say especially here, right?

 

(Sorry for the minor gripe.)

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, while baseball is a series of 1 on 1 events, it seems pretty apparent that one individual can make a greater difference in basketball than they can in baseball. That said, seriously, Jamario Moon.

[Exile on Waveland]

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And this is mine. He might well win multiple championships. I'm not saying he won't. But until then, he's not one of the all-time greats.

 

That is a completely, 180-degree, totally different argument than your statement that he isn't the best player in the league.

 

Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with your revised statement. In basketball/the NBA, where one player is so influential, you really need to win a championship to be considered one of the upper-echelon greats. We should hold off on that until his career is more complete and he's won the titles he's going to win. That doesn't make him any less the current best player in the world though.

[SouthSideRyan]

Lebron has had one year where he's had actual teammates and thus far has an incomplete. I don't need to wait for him to win a few rings before I say that he's one of the all-time greats.

[BCVM22]

Jim Cornelison will sing the anthem for all remaining Bulls home playoff games.

[Derwood]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

[DivineBovine]

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And this is mine. He might well win multiple championships. I'm not saying he won't. But until then, he's not one of the all-time greats.

 

That is a completely, 180-degree, totally different argument than your statement that he isn't the best player in the league.

 

Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with your revised statement. In basketball/the NBA, where one player is so influential, you really need to win a championship to be considered one of the upper-echelon greats. We should hold off on that until his career is more complete and he's won the titles he's going to win. That doesn't make him any less the current best player in the world though.

 

 

OK, call it a 90 degree change. Maybe not a 180. But I'd definitely put Kobe ahead of LeBron in terms of career.

 

And no, I don't believe Will Purdue had a better career than Patrick Ewing either.

[Guest]

Wow. What an unpopular opinion I have. :-"

 

 

Like I said. Show me the rings. If LeBron gets multiple rings, I'll acknowledge his greatness. Call it unfair if you like. But he teamed up with 2 all-stars and DWade who is probably one of the top 5 players in the league. The NBA has no dominant teams right now. If he doesn't win multiple rings, then there's no excuse. Maybe it will happen. But until it does, he's overrated in my mind.

Looking at rings as an individual achievement in a team sport is pointless and short-sighted, no matter what the team sport is (even baseball, which is as individual as a team sport can be).

 

Well, I happen to think the same about looking at stats. This is not baseball where its 1 player against the pitcher. It's a team sport. I judge it the contribution the player makes to getting his team to win. I admit the flaws of looking at wins. But looking at the stats isn't perfect either. Look, its one thing if LeBron is playing on a crappy team. He teamed up with 2 all-stars. What's the excuse now? Oh yeah. Spoelstra and the bench. There will always be excuses until he wins, because of his gaudy stats. LeBron supporters will always have an excuse for him because they can't fathom how he's not one of the greatest of all time because the stats say so. But who says the stats are right?

 

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And this is mine. He might well win multiple championships. I'm not saying he won't. But until then, he's not one of the all-time greats.

 

Why are you writing off this year's Heat team after 1 loss in the conference finals?

[DivineBovine]

No. Definitely not writing off the Heat. If they win the championship, I'll start to give props to LeBron.

[BigSlick]

This is completely moronic. Lebron is the best player in the NBA. It's not even close. At all. His championship(s)/ring(s) is coming; it's inevitable. I suspect the first will be this year, though I sure hope not.

Dwight Howard is close, depending on how you view defense, what metric you pick

[TruffleShuffle]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

[Derwood]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

It's still not his team. I know that flies in the face of every metric and stat, etc., but the reality is that the Heat are Wade's team. LeBron's choice to play there was almost universally panned by every former NBA superstar, all saying that they would never have tried to piggyback onto another star's team.

[WrigleyField 22]

I know Lebron could have used some more help in Cleveland, but the team was literally built around his skills, strengths and weaknesses. So while individually its a poor cast, it was one that was greater than the sum of its parts, IMO.

 

Not saying it was necessariily good enough for Lebron to win a championship in the past, but it wasn't as far as some probably like to believe. And if you were to just keep Lebron in Cleveland and all the other same FA signings, you could be looking at a Bron led Cavs in the ECF that wouldn't have to beat the Lakers if they made it to the championship.

 

He will probably win a championship or few with Miami, but I think he could have done it in Cleveland too. And from a greatness standpoint it does kind of tarnish his legacy as a possible all time great. I'm not knocking his decision. He gets to ditch the cold and play with his friends, but from a basketball legacy standpoint its not a slam dunk, even if they win championships.

 

But he is undoubtedly the best player in the game today. I do think he needs to expand his game if he wants to remain the best player at age 30-32, but he isn't 30-32 right now, so he's still the best player. If he never does expand his game to remain a high level as he ages, that will also tarnish his legacy amongst the all time greats.

[UMFan83]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

It's still not his team. I know that flies in the face of every metric and stat, etc., but the reality is that the Heat are Wade's team. LeBron's choice to play there was almost universally panned by every former NBA superstar, all saying that they would never have tried to piggyback onto another star's team.

 

Just judging by the way the Miami fans, media, broadcasters, etc act, I believe it's LeBrons team. I thought going into it that Miami fans would definitely love Wade more than LeBron due to his history with the team and bringing them a title and all. But I've noticed the opposite...they all seem to naturally defer to LeBron as "the guy". Just my observation, which could be wrong to a degree.

[SouthSideRyan]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

It's still not his team. I know that flies in the face of every metric and stat, etc., but the reality is that the Heat are Wade's team. LeBron's choice to play there was almost universally panned by every former NBA superstar, all saying that they would never have tried to piggyback onto another star's team.

 

So it's Wade's team because Scottie Pippen was drafted to the Bulls. Got it.

[WrigleyField 22]

I'd say that Lebron/Wade is roughly analagous to Jeter/A-rod. Most still consider the Yankess Jeter's team even though A-Rod is the far superior player. Not an exact analogy, but the closest I can think of that exists.

[SouthSideRyan]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

It's still not his team. I know that flies in the face of every metric and stat, etc., but the reality is that the Heat are Wade's team. LeBron's choice to play there was almost universally panned by every former NBA superstar, all saying that they would never have tried to piggyback onto another star's team.

 

So it's Wade's team because Scottie Pippen was drafted to the Bulls. Got it.

 

And those former (and current) NBA stars are so full of [expletive]. Going down the list by ELO ranking on basketball-reference:

 

Jordan: did nothing until Pippen arrived, never got the chance to join up with somebody else because he already had an wesome supporting cast.

 

Chamberlain: forced his way to LA to get away from Bill Russell

 

Jabbar: had one title (which happened to coincide with Oscar Robertson's arrival) before managing to get to a loaded Lakers team

 

Bird: played with an all-star team until they all got old and beaten up.

 

Magic: see Bird

 

Hakeem: The one example I can see, though he likely only wins 1 without Drexler "joining up" with him for the 2nd title. He certainly was not one of the honks out there criticizing James for his move.

 

Russell: See Bird

 

Shaq: Forced his way to LA, Miami, Phoenix, Cleveland, Boston.

 

Robertson: 1 title, with Jabbar

 

Malone: 0 titles, despite having Stockton

 

West: See Bird

 

Robinson: 0 titles til they lucked into Duncan

 

Have a meeting, but I think you get my point.

[wolf stansson]

With the exception of maybe Bill Walton, I defy anyone to name an NBA star who ever won a title where for all intents and purposes, they were the only good player on the team.

[bukie]

With the exception of maybe Bill Walton, I defy anyone to name an NBA star who ever won a title where for all intents and purposes, they were the only good player on the team.

I'd think maybe the closest recent example would be the 2006 Heat, and even then Wade had a past prime Shaq, Mourning and GP who were at least serviceable.

[wolf stansson]

With the exception of maybe Bill Walton, I defy anyone to name an NBA star who ever won a title where for all intents and purposes, they were the only good player on the team.

I'd think maybe the closest recent example would be the 2006 Heat, and even then Wade had a past prime Shaq, Mourning and GP who were at least serviceable.

I think that's as good an example as I can think of. Especially the way D Wade did it, drawing fouls whenever he wanted to.

 

Walton had some solid teammates too like Lionel Hollins and Mo Lucas.

 

So LeBron winning a title with Mo Williams as his #2 would be unprecedented.

[SpongeWorthy]

he's one of the all time greats for sure. But you can't be the best player in the league when you're Dwyane Wade's sidekick

 

by sidekick do you mean "guy who averaged more points, rebounds and assists per game than dwyane wade"?

 

also i love the leap of logic here. lebron went from probably being the best player in the league last year, when his surrounding cast sucked, to not being the best player in the league this year because he has another great player on his team.

It's still not his team. I know that flies in the face of every metric and stat, etc., but the reality is that the Heat are Wade's team. LeBron's choice to play there was almost universally panned by every former NBA superstar, all saying that they would never have tried to piggyback onto another star's team.

 

So it's Wade's team because Scottie Pippen was drafted to the Bulls. Got it.

 

Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you really not see the difference between a guy (in Scottie's case, something of a project coming from a tiny school that had never, ever produced NBA talent) being drafted to your team where you are unquestionably the alpha dog and going to play with two other guys who were the clear cut #1 options on their own teams?

[Derwood]

I never said James had to be the only good player on his team. I'm saying James going to Miami would have been the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls to join Ewing or Barkley in order to win a title. Would the Knicks have been Jordan's team or Ewing's?