Murray Chass on Stan Musial

[NonProfitCow]

This is absolutely unbelievable.

 

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=3118

 

And his other article on "Short Hops" is awesome as well.

[Z38Cubs]

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=3106

 

That's Murray Chass' article on Short Hops. It's one of the worst things I've ever read. Read it for a good laugh, or if you want to hate Murray Chass.

[Sammy Sofa]

Oh good. Can this be the new Short Hops thread? Because that book is a lock to be one of the dumbest things ever published. A LOCK. Let's let have Ken Tremedous have the final words/Tweets:

 

"Sometimes, random stuff happens in baseball. So if you run a team, just do whatever you want, with no methodology."

 

"One time a ball hit a pigeon. So "Moneyball" is crap."

 

"Short Hops GM: "I read about Schrodinger's Cat. Then I signed Brad Ausmus to a 30 year deal, because the future is unknowable.""

*

"How many fingers am I holding up? You don't know, do you? That's why math is stupid and you should just do whatever."

 

"Math is demonstrably fallacious. Base your decisions on gut and whimsy. Especially your financial ones."

 

"I don't know what's going to happen in five minutes, so I'm going to liquidate my assets and jump off a bridge."

 

* Bolded for incredible awesomeness.

[Careless]

An obvious shortcoming in UZR, the authors say, is its consistently low ratings Derek Jeter earned until 2009. Jeter has demonstrated many unrated intangibles, most notably his retrieval of an errant throw and his backhand flip to get Jeremy Giambi at home plate for a series-saving out in the 2001 playoffs.

Well, that showed me, now I'm going to drop $30 on a paperback so I can read the rest of this brilliance. (yes, it's really $30 at Amazon for a 200 page paperback)

Edited March 25, 2011 by Careless

[Derwood]

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=3106

 

That's Murray Chass' article on Short Hops. It's one of the worst things I've ever read. Read it for a good laugh, or if you want to hate Murray Chass.

 

You can't spell Chass without....

[javy knows my name]

That short hops article was really enjoyable. I didnt ever guffaw, but the incredulous smile never left my face

[Formerly Snayke]

Chass claims to have read "Moneyball" but still gets everything about it wrong.

[champaignchris]

I was really hoping that Musial article was going to have some substance to it, because I'm always down for some Cardinal idol bashing, but instead, we get this:

 

1. Some Black baseball players were refused seating at his restaurant by the maitre'de back in 1963, and by third-hand account Musial may have had something to do with it.

 

2. Musial may have suggested a protest against Jackie Robinson coming into the league despite the fact that a number of other sources say that Musial was not among the racists with the Cardinals at the time of integration, that he was generally friendly with his Black teammates and opponents, and that they doubt Musial would have had anything to do with the protest.

 

3. Musial, an established star in the Majors, decided not to join a fledgling Mexican baseball league.

 

4. Musial may have leaned towards the owners instead of players in some pension negotiations.

 

Is this what he's arguing? Because nothing in that article makes me think that Musial was anything worse than a fairly typical White American of his generation, and may have actually been quite a bit more tolerant than your typical White American of his generation.

 

Also, the most recent alleged incident listed in the article occurred in 1963, and Stan Musial has lived a very long life since then. If a smear article can't find anything to smear a guy with that's occurred in the last 48 years, what does that say?

[jiml60]

Also, the most recent alleged incident listed in the article occurred in 1963, and Stan Musial has lived a very long life since then. If a smear article can't find anything to smear a guy with that's occurred in the last 48 years, what does that say?

 

He's not trying hard enough?

[Formerly Snayke]

Everything Murray Chass does is ridiculous.

[SouthSideRyan]

He probably saw Musial was a Cardinal and just assumed he was a terrible person. Seems logical.

 

(Not you Albert.)

 

(Break free from those heathens)

[MSG T]

Both of those articles are like a bad movie you just can't turn off.

[NewUserName]

I do not understand the whole anti Saber crowd. I understand not really understanding all of the advanced stats and such, but why does this crowd think they have to prove that Sabermetrics is wrong?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/03/men-of-honor.html

 

Chass is exposed for the bitter old liar he is in fantastic fashion.

[davearm2]

I do not understand the whole anti Saber crowd. I understand not really understanding all of the advanced stats and such, but why does this crowd think they have to prove that Sabermetrics is wrong?

Sometimes the "anti Saber crowd" (which by the way is a complete mischaracterization) understands the advanced stats even better than most, and feel compelled to point out the limitations and shortcomings of said advanced stats when they see said advanced stats being either over-used or mis-used, with said limitations and shortcomings ignored.

 

Now before I get mauled for posting that, I realize that the "true" sabermetricians don't do this. It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

[Rob]

I do not understand the whole anti Saber crowd. I understand not really understanding all of the advanced stats and such, but why does this crowd think they have to prove that Sabermetrics is wrong?

Sometimes the "anti Saber crowd" (which by the way is a complete mischaracterization) understands the advanced stats even better than most, and feel compelled to point out the limitations and shortcomings of said advanced stats when they see said advanced stats being either over-used or mis-used, with said limitations and shortcomings ignored.

 

Now before I get mauled for posting that, I realize that the "true" sabermetricians don't do this. It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

 

It's a mischaracterization only because you're confusing the "responsible use of stats" crowd with the anti-saber crowd who think the game was best understood by their high school coaches who taught them decades ago.

[davearm2]

I do not understand the whole anti Saber crowd. I understand not really understanding all of the advanced stats and such, but why does this crowd think they have to prove that Sabermetrics is wrong?

Sometimes the "anti Saber crowd" (which by the way is a complete mischaracterization) understands the advanced stats even better than most, and feel compelled to point out the limitations and shortcomings of said advanced stats when they see said advanced stats being either over-used or mis-used, with said limitations and shortcomings ignored.

 

Now before I get mauled for posting that, I realize that the "true" sabermetricians don't do this. It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

 

It's a mischaracterization only because you're confusing the "responsible use of stats" crowd with the anti-saber crowd who think the game was best understood by their high school coaches who taught them decades ago.

All I know is that I get lumped in the latter group all the time, so the confusion you mention is certainly not only mine.

[Sammy Sofa]

I do know you're anti-something that barely even exists.

 

It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

 

It sounds like you're ultimately spinning an anti-sabermetric approach in the context of this nigh-mythical group of "casual fans" who are even aware of the types of stats you're describing, much less who are "throwing them around." Where are you encountering these people? And why are you talking about them like they're somehow less informed or more mistaken or whatever than the vast, vast majority who don't even fully understand basic things like BA, RBI, OBP, SB/CS, pitching W/L or ERA? It would be a joyous miracle if there was a bunch of fans out there casually using things like WARP or VORP or UZR because it would likely mean they at least fully "got" the easy stuff.

[davearm2]

I do know you're anti-something that barely even exists.

 

It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

 

It sounds like you're ultimately spinning an anti-sabermetric approach in the context of this nigh-mythical group of "casual fans" who are even aware of the types of stats you're describing, much less who are "throwing them around." Where are you encountering these people? And why are you talking about them like they're somehow less informed or more mistaken or whatever than the vast, vast majority who don't even fully understand basic things like BA, RBI, OBP, SB/CS, pitching W/L or ERA? It would be a joyous miracle if there was a bunch of fans out there casually using things like WARP or VORP or UZR because it would likely mean they at least fully "got" the easy stuff.

"Nigh-mythical group" huh? Well you're in it pal.

 

From a recent discussion of the 100 best players in baseball:

EDIT: Only Soto makes this list from the Cubs, at #100 exactly.

 

Fielder's a lot lower than I would have assumed.

VORP is position-adjusted, so the number is relative to others at the position. So, a player that plays SS that had Fielder's stats would have a significantly higher VORP than Fielder does at 1B. So, whlie his numbers overall are pretty good in comparison to the rest of the league, he's just the 9th most effective 1B.

 

OK, that makes more sense than what I was remembering VORP as. Thanks.

You go ballistic on anyone that has anything bad to say about sabermetrics, and spout off with your smarter-than-thou smugness, but yet display a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the most basic and widely-used sabermetrics... not realizing VORP is position-adjusted. Priceless. And exactly what I'm talking about.

[Guest]

spout off with your smarter-than-thou smugness

 

Fielder's a lot lower than I would have assumed.

[Rob]

dave, you seem to be confusing "average internet baseball message board poster" with "casual fan."

 

Casual fans exposure to advanced metrics is limited to hearing Joe Miller try to pronounce OPS as "awps" on Sunday Night Baseball.

[davearm2]

dave, you seem to be confusing "average internet baseball message board poster" with "casual fan."

 

Casual fans exposure to advanced metrics is limited to hearing Joe Miller try to pronounce OPS as "awps" on Sunday Night Baseball.

It's funny you say that Rob. The sentence you're referring to from my post originally said something like "typical messageboard poster", but I changed it to "casual fan" to tone it down a notch.

 

Regardless, it's semantics, and if there is any meaningful distinction, the point I'm making applies to both groups.

[Sammy Sofa]

I do know you're anti-something that barely even exists.

 

It's the more casual fans that throw around WARPs and VORPs and UZRs left and right with only a limited understanding of how those numbers are computed that are guilty of this.

 

It sounds like you're ultimately spinning an anti-sabermetric approach in the context of this nigh-mythical group of "casual fans" who are even aware of the types of stats you're describing, much less who are "throwing them around." Where are you encountering these people? And why are you talking about them like they're somehow less informed or more mistaken or whatever than the vast, vast majority who don't even fully understand basic things like BA, RBI, OBP, SB/CS, pitching W/L or ERA? It would be a joyous miracle if there was a bunch of fans out there casually using things like WARP or VORP or UZR because it would likely mean they at least fully "got" the easy stuff.

"Nigh-mythical group" huh? Well you're in it pal.

 

From a recent discussion of the 100 best players in baseball:

EDIT: Only Soto makes this list from the Cubs, at #100 exactly.

 

Fielder's a lot lower than I would have assumed.

VORP is position-adjusted, so the number is relative to others at the position. So, a player that plays SS that had Fielder's stats would have a significantly higher VORP than Fielder does at 1B. So, whlie his numbers overall are pretty good in comparison to the rest of the league, he's just the 9th most effective 1B.

 

OK, that makes more sense than what I was remembering VORP as. Thanks.

You go ballistic on anyone that has anything bad to say about sabermetrics, and spout off with your smarter-than-thou smugness, but yet display a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the most basic and widely-used sabermetrics... not realizing VORP is position-adjusted. Priceless. And exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Actually, scratch the longer response I had; this post is stupidly hilarious enough just be to quoted again in all of its glory.

[Outshined_One]

Oh joy. This again.

[Sammy Sofa]

Heck yes.