Harang: Dusty ruined my career

[Keener98]

This is BS. One 60 pitch game isn't going to ruin his career. How many times have people done that in history without getting hurt? Too many to count.

 

i remember when he came in that game and how i laughed at how absurd it was. then i laughed even harder when i saw him make his next start on pretty much regular rest

 

 

Not really true. He started on 5/22, pitched in relief on 5/25, and then started on 5/29, and only threw like 73 pitches in the start afterwards.

 

well, i guess you would know better than the guy who was actually throwing.

Sour grapes and bad experiences. Harang and baker never got along.

 

They probably didn't get along cause Harang was pissed that 6 weeks into the season his new dumbass of a manager decided to have him throw 60 pitches in an extra inning game

[Northside Blues]

and that sounds like a first class jackass for a ballplayer then. im not saying that it wasnt part of the problem, but if the guy was 100% healthy something like that wouldn't hurt him. now if he had some minor tendonitis, yeah sure it could. if thats the case it's on harang for not speaking up. odds are baker (or the pitching coach) talked to him and he said he was fine. if there was something wrong, it's his job to let baker know.

 

a zillion pitchers have come back on the third day with 60 pitches and didnt have a problem. you can bitch and moan about baker ruining prior and company and have a legitimate point, but this is hardly his fault.

[bukie]

a zillion pitchers have come back on the third day with 60 pitches and didnt have a problem. you can bitch and moan about baker ruining prior and company and have a legitimate point, but this is hardly his fault.

[citation needed]

[SouthSideRyan]

It was a typo, he meant to say a bajillion

[Tracer Bullet]

and that sounds like a first class jackass for a ballplayer then. im not saying that it wasnt part of the problem, but if the guy was 100% healthy something like that wouldn't hurt him. now if he had some minor tendonitis, yeah sure it could. if thats the case it's on harang for not speaking up. odds are baker (or the pitching coach) talked to him and he said he was fine. if there was something wrong, it's his job to let baker know.

 

a zillion pitchers have come back on the third day with 60 pitches and didnt have a problem. you can bitch and moan about baker ruining prior and company and have a legitimate point, but this is hardly his fault.

 

can you explain this? Harang seems to trace his struggles with fatigue back to that point and his performance corroborates his understanding. You have no established basis for your point, but you're pretty confident in your position, which is directly contrary to Harang and the results of much of the study of pitcher use over the last decade.

[Northside Blues]

.... Edited February 15, 2011 by Northside Blues

[Northside Blues]

and that sounds like a first class jackass for a ballplayer then. im not saying that it wasnt part of the problem, but if the guy was 100% healthy something like that wouldn't hurt him. now if he had some minor tendonitis, yeah sure it could. if thats the case it's on harang for not speaking up. odds are baker (or the pitching coach) talked to him and he said he was fine. if there was something wrong, it's his job to let baker know.

 

a zillion pitchers have come back on the third day with 60 pitches and didnt have a problem. you can bitch and moan about baker ruining prior and company and have a legitimate point, but this is hardly his fault.

 

can you explain this? Harang seems to trace his struggles with fatigue back to that point and his performance corroborates his understanding. You have no established basis for your point, but you're pretty confident in your position, which is directly contrary to Harang and the results of much of the study of pitcher use over the last decade.

This is false.

[Sammy Sofa]

How so?

[Northside Blues]

Because every said study tries (and fails miserably) to look at the cumulative effect of higher pitch counts on regular rest. This was a one time thing, nor was it on regular rest, so all of those studies are completely irrelevant. Nevermind that the three years prior to 2008 Harang was #5, #3 and #4 in Pitchers Abuse Points (PAP) - if you believe in that sort. #2 overall over the three year span (of course #1 was Zambrano). Edited February 15, 2011 by Northside Blues

[TruffleShuffle]

and that sounds like a first class jackass for a ballplayer then. im not saying that it wasnt part of the problem, but if the guy was 100% healthy something like that wouldn't hurt him. now if he had some minor tendonitis, yeah sure it could. if thats the case it's on harang for not speaking up. odds are baker (or the pitching coach) talked to him and he said he was fine. if there was something wrong, it's his job to let baker know.

 

a zillion pitchers have come back on the third day with 60 pitches and didnt have a problem. you can bitch and moan about baker ruining prior and company and have a legitimate point, but this is hardly his fault.

 

a zillion pitchers have come back on two days' rest after throwing over 100 pitches, thrown over 60 pitches and been fine? please share with us a few of these zillion examples (and keep them within the last 10 years; i don't care what al spaulding or mordecai brown did)

[Sammy Sofa]

Because every said study tries (and fails miserably) to look at the cumulative effect of higher pitch counts on regular rest. This was a one time thing, nor was it on regular rest, so all of those studies are completely irrelevant. Nevermind that the three years prior to 2008 Harang was #5, #3 and #4 in Pitchers Abuse Points (PAP) - if you believe in that sort. #2 overall over the three year span (of course #1 was Zambrano).

 

I don't understand how this post disproves Harang's idea that that game basically pushed his body over the edge.

[Tracer Bullet]

Because every said study tries (and fails miserably) to look at the cumulative effect of higher pitch counts on regular rest. This was a one time thing, nor was it on regular rest, so all of those studies are completely irrelevant. Nevermind that the three years prior to 2008 Harang was #5, #3 and #4 in Pitchers Abuse Points (PAP) - if you believe in that sort. #2 overall over the three year span (of course #1 was Zambrano).

 

many, if not almost all, of those studies don't corroborate a pitcher changing his mechanics, altering his arm angle, etc, due to fatigue and the result being injury?

[Tracer Bullet]

Because every said study tries (and fails miserably) to look at the cumulative effect of higher pitch counts on regular rest. This was a one time thing, nor was it on regular rest, so all of those studies are completely irrelevant. Nevermind that the three years prior to 2008 Harang was #5, #3 and #4 in Pitchers Abuse Points (PAP) - if you believe in that sort. #2 overall over the three year span (of course #1 was Zambrano).

 

I don't understand how this post disproves Harang's idea that that game basically pushed his body over the edge.

 

yeah - pitcher is "abused" over the course of several years and then his manager pitches him in relief on super short rest and then again or slightly less than normal rest. the pitcher gets fatigued, he starts messing with stuff to try to deal with it, and fucks up his arm. that's totally not exactly what Harang claims happened.

[Northside Blues]

No one has ever done a study that has verified anything to do with that. No one ever will. At best, the "studies" you are talking about say that pitchers who throw 150 pitches a game lose more effectiveness than pitchers who throw 100 pitches a game in the future. They do not say that pitchers who throw 150 pitches a game are more likely to get hurt than pitchers who throw 100 pitches a game. They do not say that pitchers who throw 150 pitches a game are more likely to have a drop in true talent level than pitchers who throw 100 pitches in a game (pitchers who throw 150 pitches in a game are a selection bias: ie you have to be performing well to throw 150 pitches). They do not say that pitchers who throw 150 pitches in a game are more likely to drop their arm angle. They do not say that pitchers who drop their arm angle are more likely to get hurt (in fact, physiologists would argue that a lower arm angle puts less stress on the labrum and rotator cuff).

[Sammy Sofa]

Still not seeing how that disproves Harang's idea that that one game caused serious damage.

[Northside Blues]

And a pitcher bitching and moaning three years later doesn't exactly prove it either. My point is that if there was no damage there, then one game like that wouldn't hurt him. If there was damage there, and his arm was more sore than normal, it's HIS job to TELL someone. Like I said earlier, the conversation probably went something like this:

 

 

DB: Aaron, hey dawg you good to go for awhile?

AH: Uh, *glances for cleats*, yeah.

DB: Alright go warm up, youve got a few innings in you.

 

after inning 2.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah.

 

after inning 3.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah, arm feels fine.

 

after inning 4:

 

DB: Good job Aaron, 9 SO in 4 IP, just 2 baserunners.

DB: We'll make sure to push your next start back two days.

 

At no point did that conversation ever go something like this.

 

DB: How are you?

AH: I'm too fatigued

DB: Rub some dirt on it meat.

AH: Uh, okay.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, because you see pitchers saying they want to come out all of the time unless they're actually unable to pitch.

 

One of the few actual meaningful things a manager and their staff can do is gauge when a pitcher can go or needs to come out because unless they're physically unable to do so they're going to say they can go.

[Guest]

So you think the fact that Harang has been bad and injured ever since this is a coincidence. And that you would know better than Harang what caused damage to his arm.

[Tracer Bullet]

And a pitcher bitching and moaning three years later doesn't exactly prove it either. My point is that if there was no damage there, then one game like that wouldn't hurt him. If there was damage there, and his arm was more sore than normal, it's HIS job to TELL someone. Like I said earlier, the conversation probably went something like this:

 

 

DB: Aaron, hey dawg you good to go for awhile?

AH: Uh, *glances for cleats*, yeah.

DB: Alright go warm up, youve got a few innings in you.

 

after inning 2.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah.

 

after inning 3.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah, arm feels fine.

 

after inning 4:

 

DB: Good job Aaron, 9 SO in 4 IP, just 2 baserunners.

DB: We'll make sure to push your next start back two days.

 

At no point did that conversation ever go something like this.

 

DB: How are you?

AH: I'm too fatigued

DB: Rub some dirt on it meat.

AH: Uh, okay.

 

this is where we've ended up? Wish I had known and could have just ignored the whole discussion. I blame myself.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

And a pitcher bitching and moaning three years later doesn't exactly prove it either. My point is that if there was no damage there, then one game like that wouldn't hurt him. If there was damage there, and his arm was more sore than normal, it's HIS job to TELL someone. Like I said earlier, the conversation probably went something like this:

 

 

DB: Aaron, hey dawg you good to go for awhile?

AH: Uh, *glances for cleats*, yeah.

DB: Alright go warm up, youve got a few innings in you.

 

after inning 2.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah.

 

after inning 3.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah, arm feels fine.

 

after inning 4:

 

DB: Good job Aaron, 9 SO in 4 IP, just 2 baserunners.

DB: We'll make sure to push your next start back two days.

 

At no point did that conversation ever go something like this.

 

DB: How are you?

AH: I'm too fatigued

DB: Rub some dirt on it meat.

AH: Uh, okay.

That's totally awesome. You would have killed if you included a fishing reference or something about his toothpick. :yahoo:

 

But seriously, say what?

[Garwilly]

And a pitcher bitching and moaning three years later doesn't exactly prove it either. My point is that if there was no damage there, then one game like that wouldn't hurt him. If there was damage there, and his arm was more sore than normal, it's HIS job to TELL someone. Like I said earlier, the conversation probably went something like this:

 

 

DB: Aaron, hey dawg you good to go for awhile?

AH: Uh, *glances for cleats*, yeah.

DB: Alright go warm up, youve got a few innings in you.

 

after inning 2.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah.

 

after inning 3.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah, arm feels fine.

 

after inning 4:

 

DB: Good job Aaron, 9 SO in 4 IP, just 2 baserunners.

DB: We'll make sure to push your next start back two days.

 

At no point did that conversation ever go something like this.

 

DB: How are you?

AH: I'm too fatigued

DB: Rub some dirt on it meat.

AH: Uh, okay.

That's totally awesome. You would have killed if you included a fishing reference or something about his toothpick. :yahoo:

 

But seriously, say what?

 

Why is Randy Jackson talking to Harang?

[Banedon]

Why is Randy Jackson talking to Harang?

 

Aaron Harang is too pitchy. Get it?

[javy knows my name]

Why is Randy Jackson talking to Harang?

 

Aaron Harang is too pitchy. Get it?

 

Someone get Captain Picard in here

[BCVM22]

Someone get Captain Picard in here

 

Make it so.

 

http://i.acdn.us/image/A9314/931409/300_931409.jpg

[Guest]

And a pitcher bitching and moaning three years later doesn't exactly prove it either. My point is that if there was no damage there, then one game like that wouldn't hurt him. If there was damage there, and his arm was more sore than normal, it's HIS job to TELL someone. Like I said earlier, the conversation probably went something like this:

 

 

DB: Aaron, hey dawg you good to go for awhile?

AH: Uh, *glances for cleats*, yeah.

DB: Alright go warm up, youve got a few innings in you.

 

after inning 2.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah.

 

after inning 3.

 

DB: Aaron, you alright?

AH: Yeah, arm feels fine.

 

after inning 4:

 

DB: Good job Aaron, 9 SO in 4 IP, just 2 baserunners.

DB: We'll make sure to push your next start back two days.

 

At no point did that conversation ever go something like this.

 

DB: How are you?

AH: I'm too fatigued

DB: Rub some dirt on it meat.

AH: Uh, okay.

 

A pitcher doesn't know his limitations. He's just supposed to pitch when he's told to pitch. If something feels wrong, he should probably inform someone, but when you are trying to earn that multi-million dollar contract, you will push those imaginary limitations until you finally break down.

 

A manager has all kinds of information at his fingertips, including all kinds of literature on pitcher abuse. It is the managers job to put the best product on the field, but also to recognize that he must protect the health of his players. Dusty Baker is known for ignoring expert opinion. When Mark Prior did his backflip over Marcus Giles, it was Dusty Baker who should have said "Sorry Mark, you aren't going back out there. You are too important to the future of this ballclub to risk you having an injury and hurting it worse without first having everything checked out".

 

In the case of sending Harang out there for 60 pitches in an extra inning game, it was Dusty's choice to send him back out there and Harang is just following orders. Dusty didn't protect his player, and now Harang has been paying the same price as Prior paid and Kerry paid and Zambrano paid.

 

The simple fact that those 60 pitches were out of his normal routine makes it an open invitation to injury. There is a recovery time necessary after throwing 100 pitches just a few days before. Just like it's a stupid idea to leave your starter out there for 160 pitches in a single game, it's just as stupid to have him throw 160 over a 3 day period. They don't train to do it, so they shouldn't do it. And it's just not the pitchers job to tell the manager this.