Pujols signs with Angels pg 151

[MSG T]

BTW, I'm not saying they have to get Prince/Reyes/Kemp + a pitcher, just that they could. Of those four, I'd take Reyes last, not that I wouldn't take him, just given where their needs will be this winter and next, he'd be below the other three spots in terms of needs.

 

Well, I don't know. It would be one thing if 3B was dealt with, but with 3B and 1B AND (to a lesser degree because of the position it is and not because of who is currently there) all question marks they can't discount any options at this point. Sign someone like Reyes and move Castro to 2B and then getting Prince for 1B makes the hole at 3B a LOT more tolerable.

 

Good point, I keep forgetting about 3B being open this winter. Baker/DeWitt platoon at 3B? Kidding...kind of.

[Sammy Sofa]

BTW, I'm not saying they have to get Prince/Reyes/Kemp + a pitcher, just that they could. Of those four, I'd take Reyes last, not that I wouldn't take him, just given where their needs will be this winter and next, he'd be below the other three spots in terms of needs.

 

Well, I don't know. It would be one thing if 3B was dealt with, but with 3B and 1B AND (to a lesser degree because of the position it is and not because of who is currently there) all question marks they can't discount any options at this point. Sign someone like Reyes and move Castro to 2B and then getting Prince for 1B makes the hole at 3B a LOT more tolerable.

 

Good point, I keep forgetting about 3B being open this winter. Baker/DeWitt platoon at 3B? Kidding...kind of.

 

Hey, that might be a very real possibility for next year. The 3B options aren't all that impressive.

[Exile on Waveland]

I said "grit" because I didn't necessarily mean Barney. Other options seem to exist for the Cubs to be at least somewhat average at second base in the coming years (as they are currently).

 

Who specifically are you talking about? Barney, DeWitt, Baker, Lemahieu? If you want a good hitting 2B, you actually need a pretty good hitter. It's a productive position nowadays. They Cubs have been plugging holes at 2B for a while now and they have only on occasion filled it with actual production.

 

Any of those guys, a platoon, Flaherty, etc. The Cubs have done a pretty decent job producing average-ish middle infielders . . . not so much at all with the corner positions/power hitters/outfielders. That's a big reason I'd look to spend money away from the middle infield.

 

As for second base being productive, I'm not really seeing it. As you said, Barney has been crappy for awhile now, but he's still seventh in the NL in OPS among qualified second basemen. The third-highest is Freddy Sanchez, at merely .730. Among non-qualified second basemen, Barney is still thirteenth out of 37 -- and Baker is fifth. Only four players have OPS's above .800, and one of those only has 16 at bats (Chris Valaika). Seems to me that most second basemen are pretty fungible.

[tfarks]

Baker/Flaherty works for me if Prince is at 1st.

[Backtobanks]

Work something out with Ramirez for a year or 2 at a reduced rate (until Baez or Vitters are ready), sign Fielder/Pujols, Kemp, and a starter. With that kind of lineup mediocrity at 2B is tolerable.

[jersey cubs fan]

I said "grit" because I didn't necessarily mean Barney. Other options seem to exist for the Cubs to be at least somewhat average at second base in the coming years (as they are currently).

 

Who specifically are you talking about? Barney, DeWitt, Baker, Lemahieu? If you want a good hitting 2B, you actually need a pretty good hitter. It's a productive position nowadays. They Cubs have been plugging holes at 2B for a while now and they have only on occasion filled it with actual production.

 

and Flaherty and others. The Cubs system is filled with middle infield options. And 2B is still not that productive overall-most teams tend to still fill it with poor hitting players.

 

Sure, the crappy teams have crappy 2B. But the good ones generally get actual production there. And the point is to try and be good.

Edited June 21, 2011 by jersey cubs fan

[jersey cubs fan]

Any of those guys, a platoon, Flaherty, etc. The Cubs have done a pretty decent job producing average-ish middle infielders . . .

 

They did a horrible job filling 2B in 2009 and 2010.

[CubColtPacer]

I said "grit" because I didn't necessarily mean Barney. Other options seem to exist for the Cubs to be at least somewhat average at second base in the coming years (as they are currently).

 

Who specifically are you talking about? Barney, DeWitt, Baker, Lemahieu? If you want a good hitting 2B, you actually need a pretty good hitter. It's a productive position nowadays. They Cubs have been plugging holes at 2B for a while now and they have only on occasion filled it with actual production.

 

and Flaherty and others. The Cubs system is filled with middle infield options. And 2B is still not that productive overall-most teams tend to still fill it with poor hitting players.

 

Sure, the crappy teams have crappy 2B. But the good ones generally get actual production there. And the point is to try and be good.

 

True, the good teams tend to get slightly better production out of 2B than the others. The key point is that of all the spots on the field that's the one the Cubs should be able to fill easiest with an above average player. So it's less effective to get a stud there when there are other holes that the system will not be able to fill so easily. Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

[jersey cubs fan]

Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

 

He has been for a month and a half. They started out toward the top of that list, have been plummetting, and will go even lower once Utley registers enough PA to bump their totals.

 

The Cubs sucked at 2B in 2009 and 2010. They could easily be on their way to sucking at 2B in 2011. There is no way you can claim they will easily fill 2B with above average production next year. That is a baseless comment.

[CubColtPacer]

Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

 

He has been for a month and a half. They started out toward the top of that list, have been plummetting, and will go even lower once Utley registers enough PA to bump their totals.

 

The Cubs sucked at 2B in 2009 and 2010. They could easily be on their way to sucking at 2B in 2011. There is no way you can claim they will easily fill 2B with above average production next year. That is a baseless comment.

 

I said easiest, not necessarily easily. The Cubs prospects may bust. That doesn't mean they should block them because they're afraid of that happening. The Cubs have to identify areas that they can get cheap average to above average production at. Right now, 2B seems to be the top of the list in that department. They have close to 5 legitimate options there to start next season.

 

And it's going to be pretty hard for the Cubs to drop much further in the rankings. Philly will pass them, but everybody else behind them is way behind them.

[Guest]

Barney doesn't have to be an above average hitter at 2B in order to be an above average 2B.

[jersey cubs fan]

Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

 

He has been for a month and a half. They started out toward the top of that list, have been plummetting, and will go even lower once Utley registers enough PA to bump their totals.

 

The Cubs sucked at 2B in 2009 and 2010. They could easily be on their way to sucking at 2B in 2011. There is no way you can claim they will easily fill 2B with above average production next year. That is a baseless comment.

 

I said easiest, not necessarily easily. The Cubs prospects may bust. That doesn't mean they should block them because they're afraid of that happening. The Cubs have to identify areas that they can get cheap average to above average production at. Right now, 2B seems to be the top of the list in that department. They have close to 5 legitimate options there to start next season.

 

And it's going to be pretty hard for the Cubs to drop much further in the rankings. Philly will pass them, but everybody else behind them is way behind them.

 

Again, it's a baseless comment. I could say 1B will be the easiest to fill with above average production.

[CubColtPacer]

Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

 

He has been for a month and a half. They started out toward the top of that list, have been plummetting, and will go even lower once Utley registers enough PA to bump their totals.

 

The Cubs sucked at 2B in 2009 and 2010. They could easily be on their way to sucking at 2B in 2011. There is no way you can claim they will easily fill 2B with above average production next year. That is a baseless comment.

 

I said easiest, not necessarily easily. The Cubs prospects may bust. That doesn't mean they should block them because they're afraid of that happening. The Cubs have to identify areas that they can get cheap average to above average production at. Right now, 2B seems to be the top of the list in that department. They have close to 5 legitimate options there to start next season.

 

And it's going to be pretty hard for the Cubs to drop much further in the rankings. Philly will pass them, but everybody else behind them is way behind them.

 

Again, it's a baseless comment. I could say 1B will be the easiest to fill with above average production.

 

You could, but I'm not sure what it would be based on. My comment is based on the Cubs prospects minor league statistics (and a little bit of scouting reports) compared to the major league averages for the position. I'm not sure what more you can base things off of when deciding when it is worth it to bring up a prospect to play a position.

[SouthSideRyan]

Barney hasn't been terrible at 2nd, and he's probably the worst option of all the ones in the Cubs system.

 

He has been for a month and a half. They started out toward the top of that list, have been plummetting, and will go even lower once Utley registers enough PA to bump their totals.

 

The Cubs sucked at 2B in 2009 and 2010. They could easily be on their way to sucking at 2B in 2011. There is no way you can claim they will easily fill 2B with above average production next year. That is a baseless comment.

 

I said easiest, not necessarily easily. The Cubs prospects may bust. That doesn't mean they should block them because they're afraid of that happening. The Cubs have to identify areas that they can get cheap average to above average production at. Right now, 2B seems to be the top of the list in that department. They have close to 5 legitimate options there to start next season.

 

And it's going to be pretty hard for the Cubs to drop much further in the rankings. Philly will pass them, but everybody else behind them is way behind them.

 

Again, it's a baseless comment. I could say 1B will be the easiest to fill with above average production.

 

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

[Guest]

In general, it's also a lot easier to get a mediocre 2B to luck his way into a good offensive year for a 2B than it is to do for a 1B. BABIP isn't going to make Lyle Overbay an above average 1B in a given year, but it could/did for Ryan Theriot.

[jersey cubs fan]

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

 

Their theoretical ceilings say nothing about how easy it will be to get above average production in 2012. The Cubs have Carlos Pena and tons of cash. Those two options are at least as likely to result in above average production at 1B in 2012.

[jersey cubs fan]

In general, it's also a lot easier to get a mediocre 2B to luck his way into a good offensive year for a 2B than it is to do for a 1B.

 

Really now?

[JimSorgi]

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

 

Just another doubter for Justin Bour to prove wrong.

[Guest]

In general, it's also a lot easier to get a mediocre 2B to luck his way into a good offensive year for a 2B than it is to do for a 1B.

 

Really now?

 

Yes. The lower the threshold, the greater the likelihood that someone passes it on BABIP variance. Just look at the leaders for the respective positions the last few years. You have guys like Callaspo, Felipe Lopez, Jose Lopez breaking into the leaders for the position. That doesn't happen at 1B.

[CubColtPacer]

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

 

Their theoretical ceilings say nothing about how easy it will be to get above average production in 2012. The Cubs have Carlos Pena and tons of cash. Those two options are at least as likely to result in above average production at 1B in 2012.

 

The original point was that the Cubs should use that money on other positions besides second base because 2B was the best chance of filling a position with decent to good players from the farm system. Your example of Pena and money is irrelevant to that point.

[SouthSideRyan]

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

 

Their theoretical ceilings say nothing about how easy it will be to get above average production in 2012. The Cubs have Carlos Pena and tons of cash. Those two options are at least as likely to result in above average production at 1B in 2012.

 

Nobody was talking about filling the void(s) from outside. The fact that we have 4 or 5 guys at AA or higher who could wind up as above average 2B doesn't make it more likely they can produce at an above average rate in 2012?

[SouthSideRyan]

That would be a false comment. I don't see what's so hard to understand. We have 4 or 5 guys(Barney, LeMahieu, Gonzalez, Flaherty, Lake) approaching major league ready who have ceilings as above average 2B. We have zero first basemen.

 

Just another doubter for Justin Bour to prove wrong.

 

I have little doubt Bour makes a run at Bonds, but he's only in High A Ball.

[sneakypower]

so, is Justin Bour the new Brandon Sing?

[SouthSideRyan]

so, is Justin Bour the new Brandon Sing?

 

Kevin Collins

[Little Slide Rooter]

so, is Justin Bour the new Brandon Sing?

 

Kevin Collins

 

Weve had too many of these guys to keep up with, as Im sure most farm system do. Bours still young though,so If he can go Paul Goldschmidt in AA, then maybe we'll be on to something.