Cubs check in on Grienke

[Post Count Padder]

Wasn't sure of this was worth it's own thread, seeing as it's likely nothing serious

 

The Cubs called on Greinke but a mid-rotation addition is more likely for them, tweets SI's Jon Heyman.

[shnsajax]

I think the asking price is going to be too high. If the Rangers lose Lee, I think they will make the move for Grienke. Texas would be a nice place for him too.

[Clem Fandango]

According to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, five teams are "seriously pursuing" Zack Greinke.

Meanwhile, three teams remain in the periphery for the ace right-hander. So far, we have heard the Rangers, Dodgers, Nationals and Blue Jays connected to Greinke from various reports. According to Rosenthal, the Royals are receiving "fair" offers for Greinke, while they are said to be asking for a pitcher, as well "up the middle" help in return.

 

So basically all our valuable prospects/young players

[Dr. Cub]

Okay, now here's a guy who compares closer to Garza than Wells with the exception of one amazing year. Talk about overpaying for not much difference in potential value. His ERA+ this year was worse (not by much) than Wells and Garza. However, previous to that, Zach and Garza have similar years of ERA+. Similar WAR also between him and Garza, without the anxiety and depression issues and MUCH cheaper in prospect and financial costs.

[Clem Fandango]

A lot of reports indicated that towards the end of the year Greinke just sort of went out there and went through the motions because he pretty much knew he would get no run support, and he still put up a WAR of 5.2. His good year isn't a fluke. He's always had ace quality stuff, he just had some mental issues before putting them in check. You put him on a contender and I bet he performs closer to how he did in 09.

 

Hell, you put him on a contender in 2010 and his numbers would probably look way better than what they were. He needs to get out of Kansas City

[Dr. Cub]

A lot of reports indicated that towards the end of the year Greinke just sort of went out there and went through the motions because he pretty much knew he would get no run support, and he still put up a WAR of 5.2. His good year isn't a fluke. He's always had ace quality stuff, he just had some mental issues before putting them in check. You put him on a contender and I bet he performs closer to how he did in 09.

 

Hell, you put him on a contender in 2010 and his numbers would probably look way better than what they were. He needs to get out of Kansas City

 

Huh? BR has him at 2.4 WAR in 2010, and an ERA+ of 100. With previous WARs of 9.0 (his CY year), 4.2, 2.7, 0.1, 0.6, 3.8 going backwards. Not exactly stellar.

[Clem Fandango]

A lot of reports indicated that towards the end of the year Greinke just sort of went out there and went through the motions because he pretty much knew he would get no run support, and he still put up a WAR of 5.2. His good year isn't a fluke. He's always had ace quality stuff, he just had some mental issues before putting them in check. You put him on a contender and I bet he performs closer to how he did in 09.

 

Hell, you put him on a contender in 2010 and his numbers would probably look way better than what they were. He needs to get out of Kansas City

 

Huh? BR has him at 2.4 WAR in 2010, and an ERA+ of 100.

 

I'm using FanGraphs. Greinke's FIP was 83 points lower than his ERa and his xFIP was 41 points lower. He was much better than his numbers indicated last year

[Guest]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

[Clem Fandango]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

This. I'm not advocating a trade for him if it takes all our best prospects and players. I'm not too concerned with the anxiety. It would be a slight concern, but he appears to have it in check. His asking price is way too much for the Cubs to partake in so I wouldn't dream of trying to pull the trigger on a deal. We've got some great young arms coming up through the system that I'd be much more inclined to keep instead of deal away for Greinke.

[SouthSideRyan]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

This. I'm not advocating a trade for him if it takes all our best prospects and players. I'm not too concerned with the anxiety. It would be a slight concern, but he appears to have it in check. His asking price is way too much for the Cubs to partake in so I wouldn't dream of trying to pull the trigger on a deal. We've got some great young arms coming up through the system that I'd be much more inclined to keep instead of deal away for Greinke.

 

No, This. I just can't imagine him fitting into a market much bigger than KC.

[Dr. Cub]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

This. I'm not advocating a trade for him if it takes all our best prospects and players. I'm not too concerned with the anxiety. It would be a slight concern, but he appears to have it in check. His asking price is way too much for the Cubs to partake in so I wouldn't dream of trying to pull the trigger on a deal. We've got some great young arms coming up through the system that I'd be much more inclined to keep instead of deal away for Greinke.

 

No, This. I just can't imagine him fitting into a market much bigger than KC.

Bingo, we have a winner!!!

[Dr. Cub]

A lot of reports indicated that towards the end of the year Greinke just sort of went out there and went through the motions because he pretty much knew he would get no run support, and he still put up a WAR of 5.2. His good year isn't a fluke. He's always had ace quality stuff, he just had some mental issues before putting them in check. You put him on a contender and I bet he performs closer to how he did in 09.

 

Hell, you put him on a contender in 2010 and his numbers would probably look way better than what they were. He needs to get out of Kansas City

 

Huh? BR has him at 2.4 WAR in 2010, and an ERA+ of 100.

 

I'm using FanGraphs. Greinke's FIP was 83 points lower than his ERa and his xFIP was 41 points lower. He was much better than his numbers indicated last year

 

So was his WAR 2.4 or 5.2? That's quite a discrepancy.

[Northside Blues]

who cares?

[Dr. Cub]

who cares?

Well, I'm no rocket scientist, but I would say the people discussing it on a DISCUSSION board might care. Although that seems a little too obvious, huh?

[Northside Blues]

What his WAR was is largely irrelevant. What his WAR will probably be is relevant. WAR for pitchers is nearly as volatile as ERA. Never mind it's inherent problems and the fact it's largely a useless metric for any discussion.

[Dr. Cub]

What his WAR was is largely irrelevant. What his WAR will probably be is relevant. WAR for pitchers is nearly as volatile as ERA. Never mind it's inherent problems and the fact it's largely a useless metric for any discussion.

 

Well would you care to enlighten me to as to how we should evaluate pitchers then, and is it irrelevant or not? I know you meant past WAR being useless for evaluation versus somehow being able to determine what the WAR would be going forward. It's still talking in circles and adding nothing but you showing how caustic you can be without giving a real thought on the matter.

[jersey cubs fan]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

Did he suffer from this when he was a 21 year old first coming up into the big leagues? I'm not sure I buy the notion that he wouldn't be able to do what he's done in a bigger city. Starting pitchers don't have to talk to the media every day. KC may be small, but it's not like it is not a big league team with cameras and crowds and games played in NY and Boston and Chicago and LA. I'm not saying I wouldn't be concerned, but handling the pressure of being a big league pitcher is somewhat universal. It's not like every day is game 7 of the world series in Yankee Stadium. And isn't it likely that he has been able to manage his issues? It's kind of insulting to just assume he couldn't adjust to a different city.

[daske17]

What his WAR was is largely irrelevant. What his WAR will probably be is relevant. WAR for pitchers is nearly as volatile as ERA. Never mind it's inherent problems and the fact it's largely a useless metric for any discussion.

 

Well would you care to enlighten me to as to how we should evaluate pitchers then, and is it irrelevant or not? I know you meant past WAR being useless for evaluation versus somehow being able to determine what the WAR would be going forward. It's still talking in circles and adding nothing but you showing how caustic you can be without giving a real thought on the matter.

 

Wins and losses baby. The way the world works.

[Guest]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

Did he suffer from this when he was a 21 year old first coming up into the big leagues? I'm not sure I buy the notion that he wouldn't be able to do what he's done in a bigger city. Starting pitchers don't have to talk to the media every day. KC may be small, but it's not like it is not a big league team with cameras and crowds and games played in NY and Boston and Chicago and LA. I'm not saying I would be concerned, but handling the pressure of being a big league pitcher is somewhat universal. It's not like every day is game 7 of the world series in Yankee Stadium. And isn't it likely that he has been able to manage his issues? It's kind of insulting to just assume he couldn't adjust to a different city.

 

Dealing with the Kansas City media on a team so bad that all the media don't care by May is orders of magnitude different than the media in Chicago or Boston or New York. He's a really weird dude, and he has that mental instability as part of who he is. You can't just say that "most everyone else adjusts just fine" with his past, especially considering the player and financial cost he would command.

[jersey cubs fan]

If anything, his issues may keep the biggest bidders, NYY, NYM and BOS out of the race and make his cost a little more reasonable for the Cubs. And since they aren't doing much offensively and can really only get better pitching by upgrading to an ace somewhere, I see no reason why the Cubs shouldn't be involved.

[illiniguy]

Zack also didn't talk to the media here, the team protected him. That is until he decided to go the media himself and rip the organization for constantly rebuilding. Which was a crappy move since they have went out of there way to protect him fro the media. He really angered the organization when he did it that way instead of just coming to them. I have no doubt he is traded and that the Royals end up a better team for it in the long run.

[jersey cubs fan]

Greinke's anxiety issues scare me, and I really doubt the return it takes to get him makes it a good value to trade for him.

 

Did he suffer from this when he was a 21 year old first coming up into the big leagues? I'm not sure I buy the notion that he wouldn't be able to do what he's done in a bigger city. Starting pitchers don't have to talk to the media every day. KC may be small, but it's not like it is not a big league team with cameras and crowds and games played in NY and Boston and Chicago and LA. I'm not saying I would be concerned, but handling the pressure of being a big league pitcher is somewhat universal. It's not like every day is game 7 of the world series in Yankee Stadium. And isn't it likely that he has been able to manage his issues? It's kind of insulting to just assume he couldn't adjust to a different city.

 

Dealing with the Kansas City media on a team so bad that all the media don't care by May is orders of magnitude different than the media in Chicago or Boston or New York. He's a really weird dude, and he has that mental instability as part of who he is. You can't just say that "most everyone else adjusts just fine" with his past, especially considering the player and financial cost he would command.

 

I'm not sure what most everyone else adjusts just fine is supposed to refer to.

 

He's adjusted to being a big league pitcher and obviously has done very well. I really think it's insulting to suggest he couldn't do the same thing in Chicago. Unless you are Zambrano and going out of your way to say and do stupid things, the media doesn't talk much with pitchers. The everyday guys are the ones taking the everyday talk. And there is no reason why the team can't make an effort to protect him. But he's pitched in opening games, in big stadiums and big matchups. I really don't know why anybody would assume he couldn't do it as a Cub.

[Guest]

I don't know what else to tell you. He's a medically diagnosed crazy person, we aren't talking about some Bradley level pseudo-science here. It wouldn't keep me from acquiring him, but it's certainly a risk worth considering because of what is at stake.

[Northside Blues]

What his WAR was is largely irrelevant. What his WAR will probably be is relevant. WAR for pitchers is nearly as volatile as ERA. Never mind it's inherent problems and the fact it's largely a useless metric for any discussion.

 

Well would you care to enlighten me to as to how we should evaluate pitchers then, and is it irrelevant or not? I know you meant past WAR being useless for evaluation versus somehow being able to determine what the WAR would be going forward. It's still talking in circles and adding nothing but you showing how caustic you can be without giving a real thought on the matter.

Because WAR is incredibly dependent on luck? And WAR itself doesn't measure wins or anything remotely close to it? Just stick with runs and your favorite FIP variant and you'll be a hundred fold more informed and better. Thanks again for insulting me for no reason. I guess I need to bump up my street cred and insult some of you guys. Edited December 8, 2010 by Northside Blues

[Rob]

WAR isn't that dependent on luck.

 

I'd prefer if they used xFIP instead of FIP, but still...