Rothschild leaving to be Yankees Pitching Coach

[Lefty]

Anybody know what happened to Alan Dunn? Is he still with the organization?

He was hired away by the Orioles as bullpen coach during the 2007 season and still serves in that role.

 

It isn't just former Cub players that MacPhail collects. :D

 

The Orioles bullpen coach is Rick Adair. But Pitching Coach is a very overrated position in the Majors. How'd that Jaramillo hire work out? Focus on performers, not coaches.

[dew1679666265]

But Pitching Coach is a very overrated position in the Majors. How'd that Jaramillo hire work out? Focus on performers, not coaches.

 

Both are important. Obviously, if you have a team like the Yankees with all-star veterans all over the place, pitching and hitting coaches are less important. But for a team that puts young, talented players out there, it's important to have good coaches to continue to teach and develop the young players.

 

Pitching/hitting coaches can't work miracles, but they are still important for a lot of teams.

[jersey cubs fan]

But Pitching Coach is a very overrated position in the Majors. How'd that Jaramillo hire work out? Focus on performers, not coaches.

 

Both are important. Obviously, if you have a team like the Yankees with all-star veterans all over the place, pitching and hitting coaches are less important. But for a team that puts young, talented players out there, it's important to have good coaches to continue to teach and develop the young players.

 

Pitching/hitting coaches can't work miracles, but they are still important for a lot of teams.

 

Sure, you want competent guys and don't want them screwing players up. But even with a good one in Larry the Cubs really screwed the pooch on Wood and Prior (not to mention Hill). I think the only guy who has consistently worked miracles is Duncan. But other than that, your pitching quality depends on what pitching talent your team is able to acquire.

[dew1679666265]

Sure, you want competent guys and don't want them screwing players up. But even with a good one in Larry the Cubs really screwed the pooch on Wood and Prior (not to mention Hill). I think the only guy who has consistently worked miracles is Duncan. But other than that, your pitching quality depends on what pitching talent your team is able to acquire.

 

We screwed the pooch with Wood and Prior because Dusty overrode Larry. There have been reports, I believe, that Larry wanted to use both less but Dusty wouldn't listen. That's supported by the much more manageable workloads the pitchers have been under since Dusty left and Lou gave Rothschild more control over that stuff.

 

I wouldn't build my offseason around a Larry Rothschild or a Rudy Jaramillo or pretty much any pitching or hitting coach, but I'd pay well to have a Rothschild or Jaramillo on my staff. And Larry hasn't turned crap into gold all the time, but he's done well with guys like Silva, Wells, Marmol, Lilly, Marquis and others. Some of it is talent, but a top end hitting or pitching coach can get the most out of a player.

[jersey cubs fan]

Sure, you want competent guys and don't want them screwing players up. But even with a good one in Larry the Cubs really screwed the pooch on Wood and Prior (not to mention Hill). I think the only guy who has consistently worked miracles is Duncan. But other than that, your pitching quality depends on what pitching talent your team is able to acquire.

 

We screwed the pooch with Wood and Prior because Dusty overrode Larry.

 

Right, so even if a PC knows what he's doing, he's still not in control and can't determine the most controllable part of keeping pitchers healthy.

[NCCubFan]

The Orioles bullpen coach is Rick Adair.

That's one of several new coaching assignments the Orioles just made. At the time I made my post Dunn was bullpen coach, but he has now been reassigned as minor league pitching coordinator (same position he had with the Cubs).

[dew1679666265]

Right, so even if a PC knows what he's doing, he's still not in control and can't determine the most controllable part of keeping pitchers healthy.

 

He can, it's just up to the manager to let him. That doesn't make it less important to have a good pitching coach, though, it makes it more important to have a sensible manager.

[jersey cubs fan]

Right, so even if a PC knows what he's doing, he's still not in control and can't determine the most controllable part of keeping pitchers healthy.

 

He can, it's just up to the manager to let him. That doesn't make it less important to have a good pitching coach, though, it makes it more important to have a sensible manager.

 

No, he can't. If it's up to somebody else, he's not in control.

[dew1679666265]

Right, so even if a PC knows what he's doing, he's still not in control and can't determine the most controllable part of keeping pitchers healthy.

 

He can, it's just up to the manager to let him. That doesn't make it less important to have a good pitching coach, though, it makes it more important to have a sensible manager.

 

No, he can't. If it's up to somebody else, he's not in control.

 

So pitching coaches aren't that important because they don't automatically have final say on when a pitcher leaves the game, even if the manager can give them that ability? There's plenty of other responsibilities that make a pitching coach important over when to take a pitcher out.

[jersey cubs fan]

So pitching coaches aren't that important because they don't automatically have final say on when a pitcher leaves the game, even if the manager can give them that ability? There's plenty of other responsibilities that make a pitching coach important over when to take a pitcher out.

 

They aren't that important for a variety of reasons. The most obvious one is because pitching talent is what determines how well a pitcher pitches. Coaches are important at lower levels, but at the higher levels they are there for babysitting purposes more than anything. Pitchers generally come up and pitch to their ability and then slowly decline as their arms age. Your team's quality of pitching will be determined by the talent of the pitchers. Not the pitching coach.

[dew1679666265]

They aren't that important for a variety of reasons. The most obvious one is because pitching talent is what determines how well a pitcher pitches. Coaches are important at lower levels, but at the higher levels they are there for babysitting purposes more than anything. Pitchers generally come up and pitch to their ability and then slowly decline as their arms age. Your team's quality of pitching will be determined by the talent of the pitchers. Not the pitching coach.

 

So you don't feel a pitching coach has any real impact on a pitching staff at all at the major league level? I completely disagree if that's the case. Their impact is determined by the makeup of the staff (as in youth vs age, etc), but they can have an impact.

 

You don't think Rothschild had any impact on Silva posting his best xFIP since 2002 after being awful last year and mediocre for three years before that?

[NCCubFan]

I don't think anyone can honestly say that a pitching coach can't have a major impact. Exhibit 1: Dave Duncan. How much of an impact depends on how much control the manager gives the pitching coach. I think the difference in Rothschild under Dusty vs. Lou helps bear that out.

[davell]

I would have thought Rothschild had a lot to do with Dempster's revival as well.

[Outshined_One]

I would have thought Rothschild had a lot to do with Dempster's revival as well.

 

Ditto Ted Lilly. You could also make a case for Randy Wells considering he was an after-thought as a prospect back in the day.

[utkcub]

Cubs set to announce the new pitching coach on Wednesday per Carrie Muskat

[jersey cubs fan]

I would have thought Rothschild had a lot to do with Dempster's revival as well.

 

Ditto Ted Lilly. You could also make a case for Randy Wells considering he was an after-thought as a prospect back in the day.

 

Ted Lilly was a damn fine pitcher long before he became a Cub.

[KingCubsFan]

I would have thought Rothschild had a lot to do with Dempster's revival as well.

 

Ditto Ted Lilly. You could also make a case for Randy Wells considering he was an after-thought as a prospect back in the day.

 

Ted Lilly was a damn fine pitcher long before he became a Cub.

Nobody was saying that when we signed him. Most saw him as an inconsistent back-end starter that Hendry overpaid for.

[jersey cubs fan]

I would have thought Rothschild had a lot to do with Dempster's revival as well.

 

Ditto Ted Lilly. You could also make a case for Randy Wells considering he was an after-thought as a prospect back in the day.

 

Ted Lilly was a damn fine pitcher long before he became a Cub.

Nobody was saying that when we signed him. Most saw him as an inconsistent back-end starter that Hendry overpaid for.

 

Lilly was largely applauded, Marquis was the one people hated. And the Soriano contract.

[javy knows my name]

I'm not sure a single person on here thought Lilly was overpaid. We all knew the competition he had to face in that division

[KingCubsFan]

I'm not sure a single person on here thought Lilly was overpaid. We all knew the competition he had to face in that division

Go back to the threads around the time Lilly was signed, and you'll see the general perception was much different. Just just to disprove your point after a quick search:

 

And in my opinion, the current market value is malarky. But hey, if the clubs got the cash to toss around, then so be it. I'm not opposed to signing Lilly, I just think $9.375MM for his track record is outlandish. I think he'd be a respectable signing at $7-8MM, but a shade under $9.5MM is another case of useless overspending. We could probably sign Schmidt and trade for a #4 easily. Why overpay for a 3/4 and then try and sign a #2? If anything, sign the #2 first, then get the 3/4. Don't jack the #2 price up by overpaying for a #3 or #4.

 

And more to the point, getting a pitcher who in the past has been mediocre to bad in the past and hoping he'll improve is really not a smart route with the composition of this team. If you want to bank on a breakout season, then just stick Marshall or Marmol or Guzman or Mateo or Ryu there and save your money.

 

2005 really was his only bad season. He's been mediocre other than that. He's not worth $10 a year though (but who knows the way this off-season is going).

 

We would be better off getting Wolf. He will come cheaper and is essentially tha same pitcher.

[SouthSideRyan]

No fair, leave the names up there.

[Sammy Sofa]

So four quotes prove that more people were opposed to Lilly's signing than were for it?

[KingCubsFan]

So four quotes prove that more people were opposed to Lilly's signing than were for it?

I'm not going to quote whole threads. Go back and read them. Very few were in favor. Most of those quotes were from a thread where the OP suggested Lilly might be a good signing.

[jersey cubs fan]

So four quotes prove that more people were opposed to Lilly's signing than were for it?

I'm not going to quote whole threads. Go back and read them. Very few were in favor. Most of those quotes were from a thread where the OP suggested Lilly might be a good signing.

 

For one, nobody knew at the time just how much they had to spend. And two, when the dust settled people were generally pleased with Lilly at least in comparison to the other signings. And three, Ted Lilly was good before he became a Cubs so the whole point of this discussion in the first place is nonexistent.

[KingCubsFan]

So four quotes prove that more people were opposed to Lilly's signing than were for it?

I'm not going to quote whole threads. Go back and read them. Very few were in favor. Most of those quotes were from a thread where the OP suggested Lilly might be a good signing.

 

For one, nobody knew at the time just how much they had to spend. And two, when the dust settled people were generally pleased with Lilly at least in comparison to the other signings. And three, Ted Lilly was good before he became a Cubs so the whole point of this discussion in the first place is nonexistent.

Maybe we have different definitions of "good," but here's what you said about Lilly at the time we signed him:

 

But in reality he's bee inconsistent. He's got a fairly high walk rate, his ERA+ has been up and down and he's highly susceptible to the HR. I liked him as a guy who you'd slot at the end of your rotation and hope for 180 mediocre innings. But he's nowhere near a #3 pitcher, and clearly not consistent.

 

How is Lilly a reliable #3? He's an inconsistent, one year up, one year down, type of pitcher. He was atrocious as recently as 2005.

 

The whole point of this is that Rothschild does deserve some credit for turning Lilly into the pitcher he is today. Since signing with the Cubs, his numbers across the board greatly improved, and given that a similar effect has happened to other pitchers, it's hard to ignore the fact that Rothschild probably influenced his improvement.