2010-2011 Chicago Bulls Thread

[Flames24Rulz]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

 

Before the season, sure. As the games were played, it became apparent that this team was much better than initially thought.

[UMFan83]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

 

You can be a missing piece and not be one of the top 20 players in the NBA.

 

I might have missed it but I didnt even see anyone say not top 20. I think he's between 11-15

[bukie]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

When the alternative is an overpaid Deng coming off 3 subpar years, a player like Anthony being available is a major step up. After 6 months of sustained good play from Deng, and a drop-off from Melo, even a straight-up swap wasn't so obvious anymore.

 

Carmelo Anthony is a really good one-on-one iso offensive player. He's also a decent rebounder. He does nothing else, though, and when all you do is shoot and your TS% is comparative to Jamal Crawford and Kirk Hinrich, you are not very valuable.

[Formerly Snayke]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

When the alternative is an overpaid Deng coming off 3 subpar years, a player like Anthony being available is a major step up. After 6 months of sustained good play from Deng, and a drop-off from Melo, even a straight-up swap wasn't so obvious anymore.

 

Carmelo Anthony is a really good one-on-one iso offensive player. He's also a decent rebounder. He does nothing else, though, and when all you do is shoot and your TS% is comparative to Jamal Crawford and Kirk Hinrich, you are not very valuable.

 

And Derrick Rose, too. Don't forget about him.

 

ETA: I was being a wise ass. No dissertations on the greatness of Derrick Rose please.

[wolf stansson]

And Derrick Rose, too. Don't forget about him.

On a tee.

 

 

Seriously though, Carmelo is underrated but he's not top 10 (I say without really putting much work into backing it up) but he's in the borderline discussion.

[UMFan83]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

When the alternative is an overpaid Deng coming off 3 subpar years, a player like Anthony being available is a major step up. After 6 months of sustained good play from Deng, and a drop-off from Melo, even a straight-up swap wasn't so obvious anymore.

 

Carmelo Anthony is a really good one-on-one iso offensive player. He's also a decent rebounder. He does nothing else, though, and when all you do is shoot and your TS% is comparative to Jamal Crawford and Kirk Hinrich, you are not very valuable.

 

And Derrick Rose, too. Don't forget about him.

 

ETA: I was being a wise ass. No dissertations on the greatness of Derrick Rose please.

 

Are you daring Rose to improve his TS%? It will be over 60% (for the season) by this time next week. If you had double dared him, it would be over 70% by the end of Thursday's game.

[UMFan83]

And Derrick Rose, too. Don't forget about him.

On a tee.

 

 

Seriously though, Carmelo is underrated but he's not top 10 (I say without really putting much work into backing it up) but he's in the borderline discussion.

 

I thought if anything he is overrated, as most people seem to have hi m in the 6-8 range as if it was his birthright to be there.

[SpongeWorthy]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

[Garwilly]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

 

How about PER?

[Tyrant]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

 

No one is saying he's a crappy player. Just disputing the commonly cited idea that he's a top 10 player.

[SpongeWorthy]

Hollinger's an idiot.

[SpongeWorthy]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

 

No one is saying he's a crappy player. Just disputing the commonly cited idea that he's a top 10 player.

 

Oh I think he's comfortably in the upper half of the 10-20 range. That's pretty valuable.

[ctcf]

Any rumblings of the Bulls still trying to find a SG at the deadline? I certainly haven't seen anything but I don't really frequent any basketball rumor sites.

[bukie]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

WARP, PER, WS82, WS/48 work for you, then?

[bukie]

Any rumblings of the Bulls still trying to find a SG at the deadline? I certainly haven't seen anything but I don't really frequent any basketball rumor sites.

Discussions with the Rockets about Courtney Lee, but the Rockets want Asik in return.

[SpongeWorthy]

Any rumblings of the Bulls still trying to find a SG at the deadline? I certainly haven't seen anything but I don't really frequent any basketball rumor sites.

 

I think they'll get someone. If I had to guess it would be Anthony Parker or Courtney Lee.

[bukie]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

When the alternative is an overpaid Deng coming off 3 subpar years, a player like Anthony being available is a major step up. After 6 months of sustained good play from Deng, and a drop-off from Melo, even a straight-up swap wasn't so obvious anymore.

 

Carmelo Anthony is a really good one-on-one iso offensive player. He's also a decent rebounder. He does nothing else, though, and when all you do is shoot and your TS% is comparative to Jamal Crawford and Kirk Hinrich, you are not very valuable.

 

And Derrick Rose, too. Don't forget about him.

 

ETA: I was being a wise ass. No dissertations on the greatness of Derrick Rose please.

Holy taking a quote out of context, batman. Might want to consider the whole sentence.

[SpongeWorthy]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

WARP, PER, WS82, WS/48 work for you, then?

 

Not really.

 

Numbers are nice but just because baseball has been boiled down to an equation doesn't mean basketball stats are nearly as descriptive. Melo's easily more than "not very valuable"

[bukie]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

WARP, PER, WS82, WS/48 work for you, then?

 

Not really.

 

Numbers are nice but just because baseball has been boiled down to an equation doesn't mean basketball stats are nearly as descriptive. Melo's easily more than "not very valuable"

So what you're saying is you like numbers until they disagree with you, and then they are useless to you. Hell, there are even numbers that suggest that Melo's value this year is less than Billups'. The primary reason all these metrics are valuing Carmelo so low is that his sole value is in his shooting, and he hasn't done that well this year. Thus the reference to his TS%.

 

Rather than look solely at this year, though, I thought it'd be fairer to look at his projections over the next 3 years, as he's quite certainly having an off year this year. To see him behind so many players in WARP projections is odd, which is why I don't consider him a top 10 player. Top 25, sure, but not top 10.

[wolf stansson]

Any rumblings of the Bulls still trying to find a SG at the deadline? I certainly haven't seen anything but I don't really frequent any basketball rumor sites.

Discussions with the Rockets about Courtney Lee, but the Rockets want Asik in return.

Chad Ford shook the tree about Mayo again this morning. Nothing definitive.

[SpongeWorthy]

Melo's been the best player on a team that's won 50+ games in a tough conference the last three seasons.

 

Reflexively pointing at TS% is lazy.

WARP, PER, WS82, WS/48 work for you, then?

 

Not really.

 

Numbers are nice but just because baseball has been boiled down to an equation doesn't mean basketball stats are nearly as descriptive. Melo's easily more than "not very valuable"

So what you're saying is you like numbers until they disagree with you, and then they are useless to you. Hell, there are even numbers that suggest that Melo's value this year is less than Billups'. The primary reason all these metrics are valuing Carmelo so low is that his sole value is in his shooting, and he hasn't done that well this year. Thus the reference to his TS%.

 

Rather than look solely at this year, though, I thought it'd be fairer to look at his projections over the next 3 years, as he's quite certainly having an off year this year. To see him behind so many players in WARP projections is odd, which is why I don't consider him a top 10 player. Top 25, sure, but not top 10.

 

Well sorta. I'm certain he's a better player than he's shown this year with the trade rumors hanging over everything. That's also why I never was all that worried about his lack of defense when he was floated to the Bulls. Thibs can get anyone with his tools to play passable D, IMO.

[davell]

The East is going to be very hard to win, both now and also over the next couple of seasons, if you ask me. I think the Bulls should have made some sort of run at Melo/Nene for Deng/Noah/picks whatever else it took type deal. Granted, Denver probably didn't want Deng's contract, so they may have declined and we may have offered for all we know, but it didn't happen at least.

 

My problem with the Bulls' roster is I really think we need an elite second player, if we're going to be making true championship runs over the next couple of years. Rose is phenomenal and will be a top 5 player(if he's not already). I think of Boozer as more of a complementary piece than a true legit threat though. On a championship team, he's a 3rd guy to me, not a true second option.

 

The only 2 spots where we can upgrade this team over the next 4-5 years is at the 2 and 3 spots. If we had gotten Joe Johnson over the offseason, I think we'd be considered as good as anyone right now. Maybe even the same if we had lifted Ray Allen from the Celtics.

 

Deng probably doesn't have negative value at this stage, but he doesn't have much positive value either, so if he were to be dealt, we'd have to replace him and honestly, that's not all that easy of a task, as he's pretty solid really. I think the only time we'll consider dealing him is closer to when his contract is up and he's more of an asset anyway.

 

Which leaves the 2 as pretty much the ONLY spot where it's going to make sense for us to make a splash. And I'm just not seeing what's available to where it's going to put us over the top. I don't see Mayo or any of these other guys as guys that are going to put us over the top.

 

With the Celtics heading downward and possibly the Magic as well, it's going to be us, the Heat and the Knicks as the 3 contenders for a while. With NJ as a possibility if they can add to Deron obviously. But, the Heat already have 3 top guys and will be adding more through mid levels and buyouts and that's what's scary to me: Watching that band of jackasses get better through moves like that, while we're needing another elite player, which is going to be extremely hard to get.

[SpongeWorthy]

The East is going to be very hard to win, both now and also over the next couple of seasons, if you ask me. I think the Bulls should have made some sort of run at Melo/Nene for Deng/Noah/picks whatever else it took type deal. Granted, Denver probably didn't want Deng's contract, so they may have declined and we may have offered for all we know, but it didn't happen at least.

 

My problem with the Bulls' roster is I really think we need an elite second player, if we're going to be making true championship runs over the next couple of years. Rose is phenomenal and will be a top 5 player(if he's not already). I think of Boozer as more of a complementary piece than a true legit threat though. On a championship team, he's a 3rd guy to me, not a true second option.

 

The only 2 spots where we can upgrade this team over the next 4-5 years is at the 2 and 3 spots. If we had gotten Joe Johnson over the offseason, I think we'd be considered as good as anyone right now. Maybe even the same if we had lifted Ray Allen from the Celtics.

 

Deng probably doesn't have negative value at this stage, but he doesn't have much positive value either, so if he were to be dealt, we'd have to replace him and honestly, that's not all that easy of a task, as he's pretty solid really. I think the only time we'll consider dealing him is closer to when his contract is up and he's more of an asset anyway.

 

Which leaves the 2 as pretty much the ONLY spot where it's going to make sense for us to make a splash. And I'm just not seeing what's available to where it's going to put us over the top. I don't see Mayo or any of these other guys as guys that are going to put us over the top.

 

With the Celtics heading downward and possibly the Magic as well, it's going to be us, the Heat and the Knicks as the 3 contenders for a while. With NJ as a possibility if they can add to Deron obviously. But, the Heat already have 3 top guys and will be adding more through mid levels and buyouts and that's what's scary to me: Watching that band of jackasses get better through moves like that, while we're needing another elite player, which is going to be extremely hard to get.

 

I think getting a real 2 guard that can handle the ball, shoot the 3, and defend gets us most of the way there. The Bulls probably have the smallest margin for error among all the contenders because of what you talk about--no elite second player.

[Formerly Snayke]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

 

Where are you getting that? Surely not from this thread.

 

Ha.

[Banedon]

Fair enough, but I think it's funny how Carmelo went from being the missing piece for the Bulls to a guy who isn't one of the 20 best players in the NBA.

 

Where are you getting that? Surely not from this thread.

 

Ha.

 

Strong argument.