Bulls Offseason Thread

[SouthSideRyan]

afraid

 

I'm just excited I'd get to see Dwight Howard break Chamberlain's scoring record all in my own backyard

[Magnetic Curses]

afraid

[Wilson A2000]

Well there's not even going to be a 2011-2012 season so I don't understand what Denver should be in a hurry for

 

Because he will be a free agent and you could totally lose him. If Denver isn't going anywhere, trade Melo so you don't have to pay his salary for 2010 and get something in return.

 

What is Denver going to do with Nene if they get Noah? Oh and don't let Joakim stand in the way of this thing going down. I love the guy, but if they want him don't even give Noah a second thought.

[DivineBovine]

Well there's not even going to be a 2011-2012 season so I don't understand what Denver should be in a hurry for

 

Because he will be a free agent and you could totally lose him. If Denver isn't going anywhere, trade Melo so you don't have to pay his salary for 2010 and get something in return.

 

What is Denver going to do with Nene if they get Noah? Oh and don't let Joakim stand in the way of this thing going down. I love the guy, but if they want him don't even give Noah a second thought.

 

 

I don't like a deal that includes Noah and picks. Hate to be a homer about Noah, but the center position would go from a strength to a serious weakness. The defense would suffer greatly. The Bulls would be well into luxury tax territory for years to come after they sign Melo to an extension. And does the team win a ring?

 

I'll take my chances with Deng at SF. Thibideau keeps saying how Deng is one of the most underrated players in the league. Let's see what he does with him.

[WrigleyField 22]

I keep trying to justify why it would be worth it to move Deng and Noah for Melo and I just can't do it. I don't see a team in which the sum of everyone is greater than the individual parts.

 

While its true you pretty much need a superstar to win in the NBA, every NBA champion also had a team in which the teammates more or less complemented each other. I look at this line up and don't see it:

 

Rose-Watson

Brewer-Bogans

Melo-Korver-Johnson

Boozer-Gibson

Gibson-Thomas-Asik

 

For Melo to be the player he is, I'm not sure that Rose and Boozer are utilized to the best of their advantage. We haven't really improved the 3PT with that team much either, our biggest weakness. And in order to do so we've taken a sizeable chunk out of our rebounding ability. Then there is the defense that we lose. I could deal with the defensive lost or the rebounding loss. Both? I don't think so.

 

Now while I don't think the current team is a contender, neither is the new team. Closer? Maybe, but not enough closer. Not when we may very well already have a player capable of being in Melo's league within the next 1-2 years. A lot of star players make the big jump their third season: Melo, Bosh, Paul all made clear jumps in their third year. That doesn't guarantee anything for Rose, but I'm willing to put my faith in the chance that he will, especially when you look at his stats were like when he was healthy last year. And now he has the perfect post player to play off of. Melo would take a lot of that away, and I'm not sure how much of a net positive it would be, if at all.

 

The Bulls are set up with many assets come December 15. I think they can be a little picky. Sure people will tell you players like Melo don't come available all the time, but I'd say that is no longer the case in today's league. Star players are involved in trade discussions all of the time now. We'll have our chance.

[Soul]

Yeah, but the Noah talk reminds me of what we were saying about Deng when he was going to be included in a deals for superstars.

 

I can't justify being so in love with a Joakim that I would allow it to prevent me from acquiring a proven top flight player like Melo. Even if that move in isolation doesn't make me a title winner. It gets me closer, and helps provide a better foundation to lure the next piece that maybe *DOES* make me a title winner.

 

Joakim -- I still don't know what he's going to ultimately become. What if he plateaus and winds up just a decent complimentary guy? I don't know.

 

I go and get Melo if I can, bottom line.

[Tyrant]

Yeah, but the Noah talk reminds me of what we were saying about Deng when he was going to be included in a deals for superstars.

 

I can't justify being so in love with a Joakim that I would allow it to prevent me from acquiring a proven top flight player like Melo. Even if that move in isolation doesn't make me a title winner. It gets me closer, and helps provide a better foundation to lure the next piece that maybe *DOES* make me a title winner.

 

I think I'm with you on this. The Bulls can't just think about 2011. I think they might actually be worse overall next year if they gave up Noah for Melo because the center position would be such a disaster, but they can't just think one year at a time. If they can get Rose and Melo, they should do it and build around that. It might take a year or two to fill in the other pieces, but it's really hard to acquire true superstars in the NBA. If you can get one who's still in the early part of his prime, you can't pass it up.

 

Joakim -- I still don't know what he's going to ultimately become. What if he plateaus and winds up just a decent complimentary guy?

 

You mean like "trade for Luol Deng and receive one complimentary Joakim Noah"? I don't think the Bulls should just give him away for free like that.

[Guest]

I'm mixed on this one. Melo is a great talent, but I'm not sure if I like the composition of the team after trading Noah to get him.

[rawaction]

I keep trying to justify why it would be worth it to move Deng and Noah for Melo and I just can't do it. I don't see a team in which the sum of everyone is greater than the individual parts.

 

While its true you pretty much need a superstar to win in the NBA, every NBA champion also had a team in which the teammates more or less complemented each other. I look at this line up and don't see it:

 

Rose-Watson

Brewer-Bogans

Melo-Korver-Johnson

Boozer-Gibson

Gibson-Thomas-Asik

 

For Melo to be the player he is, I'm not sure that Rose and Boozer are utilized to the best of their advantage. We haven't really improved the 3PT with that team much either, our biggest weakness. And in order to do so we've taken a sizeable chunk out of our rebounding ability. Then there is the defense that we lose. I could deal with the defensive lost or the rebounding loss. Both? I don't think so.

 

Now while I don't think the current team is a contender, neither is the new team. Closer? Maybe, but not enough closer. Not when we may very well already have a player capable of being in Melo's league within the next 1-2 years. A lot of star players make the big jump their third season: Melo, Bosh, Paul all made clear jumps in their third year. That doesn't guarantee anything for Rose, but I'm willing to put my faith in the chance that he will, especially when you look at his stats were like when he was healthy last year. And now he has the perfect post player to play off of. Melo would take a lot of that away, and I'm not sure how much of a net positive it would be, if at all.

 

The Bulls are set up with many assets come December 15. I think they can be a little picky. Sure people will tell you players like Melo don't come available all the time, but I'd say that is no longer the case in today's league. Star players are involved in trade discussions all of the time now. We'll have our chance.

 

Granted 4 good rebounders is better than 3, but Thomas, Boozer, and Gibson can all board. I can't see how those 3 would be significantly worse than Gibson, Noah, Miller/Tyrus. The defense would be much worse. But is that worth the huge improvement from Deng to Melo?

 

Not concerned about Melo and Rose together either, Billups still got his numbers w/ Melo in Denver.

 

Your concerns are very valid, though. But I look at Melo as a much better version of Deng, but also a player that would require offensive sets run for him more than Deng. Part of Denver's success was based on letting Melo do his thing and having guys like JR Smith to knock down shots while Nene and Martin crashed the boards.

 

I'm very torn. I'd rather give up Boozer than Noah, as I think Noah is the perfect C for a team w/ Rose and Melo that would be lethal on the fastbreak. But obviously that can't/won't happen.

[Soul]

I just don't think it's a good thing to reject the idea because acquiring Melo does not by itself win us the championship.

[rawaction]

I just don't think it's a good thing to reject the idea because acquiring Melo does not by itself win us the championship.

 

Should never completely reject the thought of acquiring one of the top 5-7 players in the game for any reason.

[Tyrant]

I just don't think it's a good thing to reject the idea because acquiring Melo does not by itself win us the championship.

 

Should never completely reject the thought of acquiring one of the top 5-7 players in the game for any reason.

 

Melo is good. He's not THAT good.

 

Off the top of my head, these guys are definitely better than Melo:

 

LeBron

Wade

Durant

Paul

Kobe

Howard

Gasol

Bosh

Duncan

Dirk

 

Deron Williams and Amare are arguably better than Melo as well.

[Derwood]

so his 24.7 ppg career average (and 28.2 last year) does nothing for you?

[Tyrant]

so his 24.7 ppg career average (and 28.2 last year) does nothing for you?

 

Are you asking me?

[Guest]

Off the top of my head, these guys are definitely better than Melo:

 

LeBron - Yes

Wade - Yes

Durant - Yes

Paul - Not with the injuries

Kobe - probably not going forward

Howard - Probably, but has real limits in his game

Gasol - Only if you're emphasizing inside players

Bosh - No way

Duncan - not anymore

Dirk - no way

 

Deron Williams and Amare are arguably better than Melo as well.

See above for my comments

[Tyrant]

Off the top of my head, these guys are definitely better than Melo:

 

LeBron - Yes

Wade - Yes

Durant - Yes

Paul - Not with the injuries

Kobe - probably not going forward

Howard - Probably, but has real limits in his game

Gasol - Only if you're emphasizing inside players

Bosh - No way

Duncan - not anymore

Dirk - no way

 

Deron Williams and Amare are arguably better than Melo as well.

See above for my comments

 

You're overrating scoring. And underrating lots of really good players. Bosh and Dirk are absolutely better players than Melo. Dirk scores almost as much and far more efficiently, plus he's a better rebounder. Same with Bosh, and he can actually defend.

 

Funny how counting stats have been scrubbed out of importance in baseball, but people still overrate them in basketball.

[Guest]

Off the top of my head, these guys are definitely better than Melo:

 

LeBron - Yes

Wade - Yes

Durant - Yes

Paul - Not with the injuries

Kobe - probably not going forward

Howard - Probably, but has real limits in his game

Gasol - Only if you're emphasizing inside players

Bosh - No way

Duncan - not anymore

Dirk - no way

 

Deron Williams and Amare are arguably better than Melo as well.

See above for my comments

 

You're overrating scoring.

You're underrating how much Melo's presence on the floor opens up opportunities for his teammates in addition to his own scoring.

 

Of the 10 guys you listed, I gave you four of them. Kobe is probably better for this year, but I'd rather have Melo over the next five without hesitation. Same with Duncan, though I don't think he's even as good as Melo this season - he's just too old at this point.

 

That leaves Gasol, Bosh & Dirk. I don't think the defense and rebounding that those guys give you makes up for the difference in offense that Melo provides on his own and for his teammates.

[Soul]

I give him LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade.

 

I can make an argument for any of the others not being as good. That puts Melo in the elite. The point is, he's in that upper strata. Other players know this. Much as I may not like it, that's pretty important in the NBA. You've got to have players to get players. The best want to work out a way to play with the best.

[SpongeWorthy]

Deng, Noah -> Melo without a reasonable big to protect the paint arguably makes us worse this year. It definitely makes us a different type of team.

 

But it's a lot easier to find a serviceable 7 footer who can guard the rim, block shots, and rebound (just not as well as Noah) than it is to find elite level scoring. You can find guys like that later in the draft, the MLE, salary dumps, regular trades, ring chasing vets, etc. I have a sentimental attachment to Noah while Melo is kind of a punk but I do this deal.

[Tyrant]

You're underrating how much Melo's presence on the floor opens up opportunities for his teammates in addition to his own scoring

 

No, I'm not. I played basketball; I know how floor spacing works.

 

This has gotten turned pretty far away from the original argument. I like Melo a lot as a player and I said earlier on the page that I'd probably go for the Deng & Noah trade. All I was responding to was the idea that Melo was currently a top 5-7 player in the NBA, right now. As good as he is at scoring, that's pretty much all he provides, elite as he is at it. There are other players that are more well-rounded, and even others who are better scorers because they're more efficient at it. I think those guys are better, based on observation and metrics like PER, etc.

 

I still think he's a top-12 player and probably does slip into the top 7 if you focus on guys you'd want for the next five years. It's probably my fault for nitpicking too much on the top 5-7 thing.

[Guest]

You're underrating how much Melo's presence on the floor opens up opportunities for his teammates in addition to his own scoring

 

No, I'm not. I played basketball; I know how floor spacing works.

 

This has gotten turned pretty far away from the original argument. I like Melo a lot as a player and I said earlier on the page that I'd probably go for the Deng & Noah trade. All I was responding to was the idea that Melo was currently a top 5-7 player in the NBA, right now. As good as he is at scoring, that's pretty much all he provides, elite as he is at it. There are other players that are more well-rounded, and even others who are better scorers because they're more efficient at it. I think those guys are better, based on observation and metrics like PER, etc.

 

I still think he's a top-12 player and probably does slip into the top 7 if you focus on guys you'd want for the next five years. It's probably my fault for nitpicking too much on the top 5-7 thing.

Fair enough. I'm probably emphasizing the projection a bit more as shown in my comments. After that, we're pretty close on how we are ranking the players. One way or another, he's an elite talent in the NBA both right now and over the next several years.

[imb]

carmelo does nothing for me. well, maybe a little more than nothing, but he doesn't wow me.

 

he's not going to rebound, pass or defend, and his shooting percentages are nothing special. His value is all tied in the amount of times he gets to the free throw line and the fact that he's a good FT shooter. Not that i'm knocking him for that, KD doesn't average 30 a game without the 9 FTs he hits per game.

 

I'd do the trade, but I just don't see Carmelo as anything more than a one-dimensional scorer. Now that I typed that though, I just realized that that's kind of exactly what the Bulls need, so I should take back this entire post and say that he'd be perfect for chicago.

[Magnetic Curses]

carmelo and rose are the perfect compliments.

[imb]

carmelo and rose are the perfect compliments.

 

Yeah, I started picturing that as I was typing and it dawned on me how absolutely physical they would be. It would be like hitting a football team with two 250 pound running backs. Both of them are pretty bullish.

 

Hurry up and do the trade so I can see them on opening night, you whores

[WrigleyField 22]

I don't necessarily have a problem with taking a hit this year by trading for Melo except for the fact that I really do struggle envisioning a team built around him and Rose.

 

Someone mentioned what worked for Denver:

 

having guys like JR Smith on the outside and Nene/Martin crashing the boards.

 

The problem is we don't have the shooters like that, other than Korver who is a 25min guy at most. Billups is also a really good 3PT shooter. Thats something Rose could develop yet, but right now he hasn't proven it. Then Boozer is obviously better than Nene or Martin, but to ask him to simply crash the boards and fill the role they did is way under-utilizing him. He is going to be most effective as the number 2 option where Rose is running the P&R with him a lot. In order to do that, you are going to minimize Melos effectiveness.

 

Now the team would have enough talent to be a playoff team for a long team, but I really question its ability to get to the next step.

 

Now a Deng/Taj for Melo would have the same limitations really, but at least we would still have our top 10 starting center. Theres a balance you can take IMO between overwhelming talent and good fit. You can deal with a certain amount of poor fits if the talent is there, see Miami Heat. We'd be a lesser version of the Miami Heat, with less opportunity to add role players.