Batting the P 8th

[rawaction]

Still don't see the benefit in this.

 

3rd inning, the Pirates get a 1-out single by 9th hitter, Bobby Crosby. If he would have been hitting 8th, the P would have been able to bunt him over, and he would have had a chance to score when Iwamura singled right after him.

 

Next inning, Pirates get the bases loaded, but with 2 outs, the 8th place hitting P is at the plate, killing any chance they had to score.

[Electron Blue]

Still don't see the benefit in this.

 

3rd inning, the Pirates get a 1-out single by 9th hitter, Bobby Crosby. If he would have been hitting 8th, the P would have been able to bunt him over, and he would have had a chance to score when Iwamura singled right after him.

 

Next inning, Pirates get the bases loaded, but with 2 outs, the 8th place hitting P is at the plate, killing any chance they had to score.

 

Your criticisms are based on 2 chance situations. By equal luck (ignoring the fact that it's the Pirates), the lineup could have just as easily created situations that made the manager look brilliant.

 

It's luck, largely, as far as whether it pays off or not. Really the only tangible benefit I see is that the #8 guy gets more ABs . . . so I agree with you, but not for the same reasons maybe.

[chuckywang]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

But the only time a pitcher would get more ABs than the 9 hitter is when they are pitching a really good game.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

My gorilla math tells me it's about 30-40 PA's a season.

[Clem Fandango]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

Is that such a bad thing?

[third eye]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

My gorilla math tells me it's about 30-40 PA's a season.

 

I think the "more plate appearances" logic for lineup construction falls apart a bit at the bottom of the order. A team OBP of .350 yields about 41-42 plate appearances in a game, which turns the lineup over about 4.6 times. in order to turn it over 5 times a game, you'd need to increase the team OBP to nearly .400. Sure there will definitely be games where everyone gets 5+ plate appearances, but I don't know that the 8-9 slots would see a meaningful difference over the course of a year. And that's before you factor in pinch hitters for pitchers who will likely not even see 4 plate appearances in a game.

[Guest]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

But the only time a pitcher would get more ABs than the 9 hitter is when they are pitching a really good game.

 

Agreed. And the replacement at bats for the pitcher are typically going to be guys who probably hit better than most teams (especially Pittsburgh) true #8 hitters. Thus, if you want to improve the chances for the #3 and #4 hitters, it's probably better to let pitchers bunt the #8 hitter over if he gets on, or hope that the pinch hitters for the pitcher provide quality production later in the game.

[Guest]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

But the only time a pitcher would get more ABs than the 9 hitter is when they are pitching a really good game.

 

So when they're not, that means an extra PH opportunity, to be used by a guy who in all likelihood is worse than the 9 hitter(position player).

[SouthSideRyan]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

But the only time a pitcher would get more ABs than the 9 hitter is when they are pitching a really good game.

 

So when they're not, that means an extra PH opportunity, to be used by a guy who in all likelihood is worse than the 9 hitter(position player).

 

I'd imagine most teams best bench player is a better hitter than their 8th best starter.

[Guest]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

But the only time a pitcher would get more ABs than the 9 hitter is when they are pitching a really good game.

 

So when they're not, that means an extra PH opportunity, to be used by a guy who in all likelihood is worse than the 9 hitter(position player).

 

I'd imagine most teams best bench player is a better hitter than their 8th best starter.

 

But that guy was already going to pinch hit later in the game. It's really the 3rd, 4th best bench guy, depending on the game and how early the pitcher leaves. And if they do put the best bench player, then it leaves worse hitters to hit in higher leverage situations later.

[kujay]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

We should bat Baker 9th then.

[Jake]

It's quite simple really ... no. 8 hitter gets more ABs than the no. 9 hitter, therefore the P will get more ABs than Bobby Crosby.

 

Is that such a bad thing?

 

Actually, it's more likely to be Cedeno.

 

And, at least when Duke is pitching, the better hitter is hitting 8th.

[Jake]

John Russell's rationale has to do with where to bat Andrew McCutcheon.

 

One school of thought is to have him bat lead off, to take advantage of his speed. The other is to bat him third as we really are lacking power on the team, and he's as good as anyone not named Jones.

 

So, this whole thing is a compromise.

 

The first time through the order, he's batting second. Subsequent trips through the order he's effectively batting third.

 

I think, if we had another top of the order choice, he'd be batting third. If we had more power, he'd be batting first. And, in either case, the pitcher would be 9th. Since we don't, they're trying this.

 

That Aki is 0 for '10 isn't helping.

 

I'm curious to see how this looks after a couple of weeks.

 

There was a piece in SI by some guy I never heard of named Sky. He offers some interesting points on it.

[woodchip2153]

Sky writes for beyondtheboxscore, I believe

[Jake]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/sky_andrecheck/04/08/pirates.order/index.html

 

link to above mentioned article.

[champaignchris]

Possibly meaningless statistics:

 

NL 8th batter averages per team in 2009: 563 AB, 60 R, 143 H, 11 HR, 62 RBI, .253/.326/.371

 

NL ph averages per team in 2009: 226 AB, 26 R, 52 H, 5 HR, 30 RBI, .231/.321/.362

 

NL P averages per team in 2009: 297 AB, 17 R, 41 H, 2 HR, 16 RBI, .138/.179/.175

[third eye]

Possibly meaningless statistics:

 

NL 8th batter averages per team in 2009: 563 AB, 60 R, 143 H, 11 HR, 62 RBI, .253/.326/.371

 

NL ph averages per team in 2009: 226 AB, 26 R, 52 H, 5 HR, 30 RBI, .231/.321/.362

 

NL P averages per team in 2009: 297 AB, 17 R, 41 H, 2 HR, 16 RBI, .138/.179/.175

 

 

A quick check at BR shows the following plate appearances for the 2009 Cubs:

 

Batting 8th: 647

Batting 9th: 623

 

Pitchers: 365

Pinch Hitters: 272 (looks like 268 of these were for the pitchers spot)

 

So the difference between the 8th and 9th spots last year was 24 plate appearances, but pitchers accounted for less than 60% of the 9th position plate appearances (If we place all of the 365 in the 9 slot, which is an oversimplification). If you have a decent first option off the bench, the difference in plate appearances between the 8th and 9th spots is not particularly meaningful.

[Rob]

Batting the pitcher eighth will begin to make a lot more sense when you realize your best batter should be hitting 2nd in the order.