Do you consider the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Yankees-Red Sox may be overplayed, but it also features two of the best teams and many of baseball's big stars. It's not just of interest to the northeast.

[webjim25]

Anyway the Cubs/Cards rivalry is probably the 2nd best rivalry in all of baseball.

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I've been in the Navy for 13 years. Ive been stationed in various places in the US and out. I've met and befriended literally hundreds of baseball fans. Most fans only interact with people in their local area, or on boards such as these, but I work with and hang out with fans from almost every state on a daily basis.

 

In my experience the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry is only relevant to Cub and Cardinal fans. The San Fran-LA and Mets-Phillies rilvary is much more acknowledged by the casual fan than Cards-Cubs. At least in my circles, but they are broader than the average.

 

As far as very recent history is concerned, I can agreee with the Mets/Phillies thing. Between the Mets back to back collapses in a heated race with Philly, and the general disdain between Philly and NY in all sports, not to mention the proximity, it's a big deal. But rivalry means a few different things, what's hot at the moment and what is always a big rivalry. Cubs/Cards is not nearly as big nationwide as many Cubs/Cards fans assume, but it's up there.

 

That said, Mets/Phils is only relavent to Mets/Phils fans, Yanks/Red Sox is only relavent to their fans, and thee people who make money off it. Giants/Dodgers is only relavent to their fans, but that includes both east and west coast fans, since they moved and retain a fan base.

 

 

OK, I shouldnt have used the word 'relevant.' What I meant was, the baseball fans I know, in very large part, arent even aware that their is a Cards-Cubs rilvalry. Everyone, including you and me agree that Yanks/RedSox is the biggest rilvary in baseball. We may not 'care' about it, but we know its there. Cards/Cubs cant be the second biggest if no fans (or very little fans) outisde of the NL Central know its there. You say its not as big nationwide as we think but its "up there." So far, my reserarch shows that its barely 'there.'

[CubbieBum]

Anyway the Cubs/Cards rivalry is probably the 2nd best rivalry in all of baseball.

.

 

I've been in the Navy for 13 years. Ive been stationed in various places in the US and out. I've met and befriended literally hundreds of baseball fans. Most fans only interact with people in their local area, or on boards such as these, but I work with and hang out with fans from almost every state on a daily basis.

 

In my experience the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry is only relevant to Cub and Cardinal fans. The San Fran-LA and Mets-Phillies rilvary is much more acknowledged by the casual fan than Cards-Cubs. At least in my circles, but they are broader than the average.

 

As far as very recent history is concerned, I can agreee with the Mets/Phillies thing. Between the Mets back to back collapses in a heated race with Philly, and the general disdain between Philly and NY in all sports, not to mention the proximity, it's a big deal. But rivalry means a few different things, what's hot at the moment and what is always a big rivalry. Cubs/Cards is not nearly as big nationwide as many Cubs/Cards fans assume, but it's up there.

 

That said, Mets/Phils is only relavent to Mets/Phils fans, Yanks/Red Sox is only relavent to their fans, and thee people who make money off it. Giants/Dodgers is only relavent to their fans, but that includes both east and west coast fans, since they moved and retain a fan base.

 

 

OK, I shouldnt have used the word 'relevant.' What I meant was, the baseball fans I know, in very large part, arent even aware that their is a Cards-Cubs rilvalry. Everyone, including you and me agree that Yanks/RedSox is the biggest rilvary in baseball. We may not 'care' about it, but we know its there. Cards/Cubs cant be the second biggest if no fans (or very little fans) outisde of the NL Central know its there. You say its not as big nationwide as we think but its "up there." So far, my reserarch shows that its barely 'there.'

 

You know some very very stupid baseball fans.

[Garwilly]

Shouldn't the feelings of those involved in the rivalry be the measuring stick of a rivalry? Who cares if someone from Seattle doesn't know/care about the Cubs/Cards? Their opinions are irrelevant.

[jersey cubs fan]

Shouldn't the feelings of those involved in the rivalry be the measuring stick of a rivalry? Who cares if someone from Seattle doesn't know/care about the Cubs/Cards? Their opinions are irrelevant.

 

Well if the feelings of those involved is that their rivalry is a huge in comparison to other rivalries than the feelings of those not involved obviously do matter. Cubs/Cards matters to Cubs/Cards fans, but not to any others.

[webjim25]

Shouldn't the feelings of those involved in the rivalry be the measuring stick of a rivalry? Who cares if someone from Seattle doesn't know/care about the Cubs/Cards? Their opinions are irrelevant.

 

I agree with you. I just dont think you can call it (and not that YOU personally did) the 2nd biggest rilvary in baseball if only the fans of the teams involved in it know that it exists. If thats the case then four different rivalrys are the second biggest in baseball.

 

 

 

And I knew someone would say something along the lines of the fans I know are stupid. Of course you'd say that.

 

 

Edit - I belong to several message boards outside of the midwest. Im going to post threads asking what/who they think is the second biggest rivalry in baseball is. Im going to leave out Dodgers/Giants/Mets/Phillies boards and all NL Central boards. I'll post results in 2 days.

[Garwilly]

For the record, I put Cubs/Cards and Giants/Dodgers on the same plane, a coin flip for 2nd/3rd.

 

Overall recognition (national or otherwise) is not what makes a rivalry "great", "intense", or "the best", it is those involved, interacting with one another. Can I tell you the top CFL rivalries? No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. What about the top Ivy league rivalries? I may think of Brown, Cornell, Harvard, Yale?...Well my outside perceptions are uninformed and Princeton in may have a top rival.

 

The point is, a rivalry is not best "ranked" by acknowledgment. Cowboys and any one of Giants/Redskins/Eagles gets more pub than Packers/Vikings, Chiefs/Raiders, etc. Does that mean they are better? Of course not. They may or may not be better, but public perception has nothing to do with it.

[jersey cubs fan]

For the record, I put Cubs/Cards and Giants/Dodgers on the same plane, a coin flip for 2nd/3rd.

 

Overall recognition (national or otherwise) is not what makes a rivalry "great", "intense", or "the best", it is those involved, interacting with one another. Can I tell you the top CFL rivalries? No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. What about the top Ivy league rivalries? I may think of Brown, Cornell, Harvard, Yale?...Well my outside perceptions are uninformed and Princeton in may have a top rival.

 

The point is, a rivalry is not best "ranked" by acknowledgment. Cowboys and any one of Giants/Redskins/Eagles gets more pub than Packers/Vikings, Chiefs/Raiders, etc. Does that mean they are better? Of course not. They may or may not be better, but public perception has nothing to do with it.

 

But you can't do something as subjective as try and rank rivalries and not take into account recognition and opinion. A rivalry does not exist in a vacuum.

[Garwilly]

For the record, I put Cubs/Cards and Giants/Dodgers on the same plane, a coin flip for 2nd/3rd.

 

Overall recognition (national or otherwise) is not what makes a rivalry "great", "intense", or "the best", it is those involved, interacting with one another. Can I tell you the top CFL rivalries? No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. What about the top Ivy league rivalries? I may think of Brown, Cornell, Harvard, Yale?...Well my outside perceptions are uninformed and Princeton in may have a top rival.

 

The point is, a rivalry is not best "ranked" by acknowledgment. Cowboys and any one of Giants/Redskins/Eagles gets more pub than Packers/Vikings, Chiefs/Raiders, etc. Does that mean they are better? Of course not. They may or may not be better, but public perception has nothing to do with it.

 

But you can't do something as subjective as try and rank rivalries and not take into account recognition and opinion. A rivalry does not exist in a vacuum.

 

I disagree. And I recognize the paradox/hypocrisy that comes from me saying outside opinions are irrelevant, while attempting to rank them myself.

 

I do maintain though that the "rivalry" and the "perception of the rivalry" are two entirely separate things. That is my point.

[webjim25]

For the record, I put Cubs/Cards and Giants/Dodgers on the same plane, a coin flip for 2nd/3rd.

 

Overall recognition (national or otherwise) is not what makes a rivalry "great", "intense", or "the best", it is those involved, interacting with one another. Can I tell you the top CFL rivalries? No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. What about the top Ivy league rivalries? I may think of Brown, Cornell, Harvard, Yale?...Well my outside perceptions are uninformed and Princeton in may have a top rival.

 

The point is, a rivalry is not best "ranked" by acknowledgment. Cowboys and any one of Giants/Redskins/Eagles gets more pub than Packers/Vikings, Chiefs/Raiders, etc. Does that mean they are better? Of course not. They may or may not be better, but public perception has nothing to do with it.

 

But you can't do something as subjective as try and rank rivalries and not take into account recognition and opinion. A rivalry does not exist in a vacuum.

 

I disagree. And I recognize the paradox/hypocrisy that comes from me saying outside opinions are irrelevant, while attempting to rank them myself.

 

I do maintain though that the "rivalry" and the "perception of the rivalry" are two entirely separate things. That is my point.

 

 

OK then, well my question is this: How do you quantify what rivalry is bigger or more intense than another? How you you rank them objectively? I think you either have some quantifiable messuring stick or you're simply station personal opinion. And I dont think there is anything wrong with either.

[DanzaSlap]

Basically Carondelet = Festus.

 

C'mon now. It's not that bad.

[baseballfan50]

I think the Cubs are still the Cardinals #1 rivalry, but it's somewhat more friendly than other rivalries. And the Cardinals have recently had a rivalry with the Astros (who were more of a threat for a while). We still have a rivalry with the Brewers, I think. The Brewers are mostly annoying. And the rivalry with the Royals is more of a once-a-year thing. Most Cardinals' fans don't take the Royals seriously, and haven't since the '80s.

 

I have noticed a superiority complex in Chicagoans (about their city), but I think they feel that way about any city except New York or LA. I have nothing against the city of Chicago. I have never been there. I don't think it's necessarily a better city, though. It's just bigger. And not everybody wants to live in a city that size.

[baseballfan50]

When the Cardinals come to Chicago the park is overrun with rednecks wearing red.

 

This sounds dubious. Any Cardinals fans I've ran into in St. Louis were not rednecks. Alcoholics, maybe, but you have to go west until you find redneck Cardinals fans. And I highly doubt those people have the money to just jet off to Wrigley. They have to hold up signs calling people "morans."

 

have you never been to south county?

 

Bingo. Perhaps the rednecks don't travel north much, but they are in full display here. I don't even like to go to games here anymore because it's just full of dumbasses. TBBFIA my ass.

 

In my experience, Cards fans care much more about the rivalry than we do. It goes hand-in-hand with the general inferiority complex they have about Chicago, similar to what KC has with St. Louis. I was driving through Soulard the other day (a neighborhood in St. Louis) and saw a "Cubs suck" sticker on a stop sign. Really? Come on. You can go to any Cards game here, regardless of the opponent, and you'll see vendors selling shirts with billy goats on them and various other "Cubs suck" shirts.

 

I'm not saying it's not a rivalry for us too, cuz it is. But I guess because there is less going on here or because it's something that makes them feel good about themselves, they dwell on the Cubs an awful lot. But to be that wrapped up with a team that hasn't won [expletive] in forever, it's stupid.

 

From my experience, St. Louisans find harping on the Cubs funny, that's why St. Louisans do it. And St. Louisans generally are tired of always being compared to Chicago, just like Chicagoans are tired of being compared to New York. There probably is an inferiority complex, but it's from decades of being compared to Chicago, when St. Louis is a fraction of the size. And, from what I've heard and read, suburban St. Louisans love to say bad things about the city. I don't know why, since it (in my opinion) prohibits the growth of the entire area. If you've ever read a St. Louis Post-Dispatch article's comments, you'll see plenty of St. Louisans that hate the city, for some reason. But St. Louis city's population seems to have stabilized, and the suburbanites generally go to the city for entertainment (which further confuses me as to why they hate the city that they depend on).

 

And you probably will find "rednecks" at Cardinal games, because the Cardinals territory reaches to Oklahoma, Arkansas, across Missouri, into Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Ohio. Actually, there are probably quite a few redneck Cubs fans too, they just can't afford tickets.

 

I think much of the differences in the fanbases also comes from differences in culture. Much of Cardinals territory has southern influences, and much of it is rural. Whereas Chicago is obviously very urban, and you also have Milwaukee right there. And the Cubs fanbase probably has more solidly Midwestern fans. If you travel very far outside of St. Louis, in pretty much any direction except north, you will find more country music, fourwheelers, and hunting, which is probably somewhat of a southern trait, and a rural trait.

 

I think St. Louisans expect to get compared to Chicago, so they pick on the Cubs, Chicago's iconic team. That, and the teams have been playing against each other since 1882. Although, if it were all about hating Chicago, Cards fans would hate the White Sox. From my experience, Cardinals and White Sox fans get along pretty well. St. Louis feels like they are being unfairly compared to Chicago, and Sox fans feels like they are oppressed by the Cubs. The Sox and the Cardinals both hate the Cubs. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, especially when they never play each other.

 

This is a pretty ridiculous topic.

 

Honestly I'm kind of surprised that lesson hasn't mentioned Cardstalk yet.

 

Dear Lesson, Cubs/Cards will continue to be the biggest rivalry thirty miles west of the Atlantic. I'm not sure why you would possibly think it wouldnt be. Are you trying to polarize yourself against yet another message board community?

 

Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.

 

Cards talk has some good posters, but it is called the Asylum for a reason. People tend to post all kinds of topics, and sometimes gut reactions.

 

Keep in mind, any internet forum is bound to bring out all kinds of people. And people tend to be more candid than they would face-to-face.

 

Would a Cardinals fan rather see the Cubs or the Mets win the World Series?

 

I don't really care about the Mets. They were the Cardinals rival in my parents' generation, but they are not in the same division as the Cardinals anymore.

 

If the Cubs won the World Series, I would get over it. I wouldn't like it, but it's not like it would be the end of the world. I don't want to sound like a troll, but it wouldn't bother me that much because we have been more successful over the history of the two teams. If the Cardinals aren't in the postseason, I don't care that much. But if the Cubs or Yankees or Red Sox get knocked out of the postseason, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Edited April 6, 2010 by baseballfan50

[baseballfan50]

Answer me this Ricky, how many of your friends have a strong irrational dislike bordering on hatred of the Royals? Rivals usually bring out strong feelings about the other team. Look at the statements made about the Cardinals made on this thread? How much of that do you hear from Card fans about the Royals? I wager you there aren't as many threads started on any Cards fan forum in a MONTH as there are about the Cubs in a single DAY or about MIL/CIN in a week

 

If you think this is a rivalry, you have some very weak standards for a rivalry

 

 

The Royals-Cards rivalry is, in a sense, like the White Sox-Cubs rivalry.

If the White Sox had been baseball-irrelevant the last 15 years and were finishing last in their division 9 times out of 10, maybe.

 

Yeah, but the 85 WS still rubs many Cardinal fans the wrong way.

 

Much of the complaint was with Don Dekinger. And even that has calmed down since 2006.

[CubbieBum]

Part of the rivalry between the Cubs and Cardinals is that throughout the two cities history they have been rivals. They were both big cities in the west for a long time and, according to a tour guide I had on a 6th grade trip to Chicago, St. Louis has actually sued Chicago way back when over Chicago putting all their trash in the river. The trash would follow the current and go down to St. Louis. I remember the tour guide saying there was once so much trash in the river that you could walk across the river on top of trash.

[seanimal]

I have noticed a superiority complex in Chicagoans (about their city), but I think they feel that way about any city except New York or LA.

 

Nope, better than those too.

 

If the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry wasn't national fodder, why does ESPN pick it up almost every single Sunday it occurs? I'd rank it 3rd, behind NYY/BOS and LA/SF. Also, 2003 was a great year for the rivalry.

[champaignchris]

I think the Cubs are still the Cardinals #1 rivalry, but it's somewhat more friendly than other rivalries.

 

More friendly? Have you spent any appreciable time in Central Illinois? It's not open warfare in the streets, but you can draw a line from about Des Moines to Terra Haute, and a hundred miles on either side of that line is a region of fairly fierce partisanship for one team or the other. My daughter is seven years old and doesn't really watch much baseball, but she knows for every kid in her class whether they come from a Cubs family or a Cards family.

 

George Will has written quite a bit about growing up a Cubs fan in Champaign, Illinois and having to deal with Cardinal fans.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Most of what George Will wrote was whining about how hard it was to see the Cardinals succeed and having to root for the Cubs. He barely ever wrote about Cardinals fans actually doing anything more than very, very light taunting.

[bcl412]

It seems like the Cubs Cards play on Fox on Saturday or ESPN on Sunday quite a bit. I'm guessing if those two teams are playing on national television then people throughout the nation recognize it as a rivalry.

[Chief_Cardinal]

I suppose, though you're going to struggle to find many Mets fans that are going to say that Cardinals are more of a rival to the Mets than the Phillies, and I really haven't heard or known any Cardinals fans until now that would say the Mets are the Cardinals rival over the Cubs. You simply don't see many teams having their main rivals outside of their division.

 

I don't think i would say the Mets are a bigger rival...but the Mets are the only team that I really hate (unless Santana is pitching)> But agree that Mets fans wouldn't agree. If the schedules were still even, then maybe though. Now saying that the Astros are more of a rival...you might have a better argument.

[baseballfan50]

I think the Cubs are still the Cardinals #1 rivalry, but it's somewhat more friendly than other rivalries.

 

More friendly? Have you spent any appreciable time in Central Illinois? It's not open warfare in the streets, but you can draw a line from about Des Moines to Terra Haute, and a hundred miles on either side of that line is a region of fairly fierce partisanship for one team or the other. My daughter is seven years old and doesn't really watch much baseball, but she knows for every kid in her class whether they come from a Cubs family or a Cards family.

 

George Will has written quite a bit about growing up a Cubs fan in Champaign, Illinois and having to deal with Cardinal fans.

 

Let me clarify, from my experience the Cardinals-Cubs rivalry is not vicious as Yankees-Red Sox.

[Garwilly]

I think the Cubs are still the Cardinals #1 rivalry, but it's somewhat more friendly than other rivalries.

 

More friendly? Have you spent any appreciable time in Central Illinois? It's not open warfare in the streets, but you can draw a line from about Des Moines to Terra Haute, and a hundred miles on either side of that line is a region of fairly fierce partisanship for one team or the other. My daughter is seven years old and doesn't really watch much baseball, but she knows for every kid in her class whether they come from a Cubs family or a Cards family.

 

George Will has written quite a bit about growing up a Cubs fan in Champaign, Illinois and having to deal with Cardinal fans.

 

Let me clarify, from my experience the Cardinals-Cubs rivalry is not vicious as Yankees-Red Sox.

 

Agreed. I have, for the most part, found it to be very friendly. A Cardinal fan stood up in my wedding.

[jersey cubs fan]

Agreed. I have, for the most part, found it to be very friendly. A Cardinal fan stood up in my wedding.

 

I'm sure he applauded at all the appropriate times too.

[Garwilly]

Agreed. I have, for the most part, found it to be very friendly. A Cardinal fan stood up in my wedding.

 

I'm sure he applauded at all the appropriate times too.

 

He also wore jorts.

[tfarks]

Agreed. I have, for the most part, found it to be very friendly. A Cardinal fan stood up in my wedding.

 

I'm sure he applauded at all the appropriate times too.

 

He also wore jorts.

 

=D> Fantastic.