McGwire admits to steroid use

[The Voice of Reason]

Indeed.

 

"There's a sucker born every minute"

 

- P.T. Barnum

 

Agree, all those people who think "the steroid era" is encompassed in the mid 90's to 2005-ish are clearly suckers.

 

I'd be curious to see the Voice of Reason explain how I'm being a "sucker." I fully recognize that PED use did and does exist in baseball. At the same time I recognize that people didn't really have a problem with "steroid baseball" at the time of its peak: in fact, it was the opposite and it arguably brought the game back from the brink. I also recognize that the "steroid era" extends well beyond the relatively small window of time and small group of players that those who decry it the most want to relegate it to.

 

Talk about revisionist history. No one knew the extent of steroid use that was going on. In fact, when Canseco's book came out he was criticized by most for exagerating.

 

"Back from the brink," LOL. Baseball survived for a long time without steroids and currently has record attendance with the HR #'s way because of drug testing and much less steroid use. While enriching the cheaters, steroids made a mockery of the game and some of its long held records.

[XZero771679666304]

The Voice of Reason is just trying to instigate. If he's not, he is simply a moron.

 

Recognizing the use of PEDs then and now is not being suckered. Realizing that and how it helped the game is being pragmatic. Many of us saw it then, much the way we see it in the NFL now. In both cases, is has proven and continues to prove to be a boon to the respective sports. Baseball was in dire straits in the mid nineties. Interest was waning, and revenues were dropping. Without Sosa, the Cubs would not have a $140M dollar payroll today. Baseball in general would not be enjoying the prosperity it is. There would almost certainly be less talent coming into the game. It may have been done out of self interest, but guys like McGwire and Sosa really may have saved the sport.

 

I haven't been suckered. Nuts&Gum hasn't been suckered. J.R. hasn't been suckered.

 

The only true suckers here are the ones who have long lived under the illusion that sport is pure, heroes never cheat, and can't reconcile with the fact that sometimes a little integrity has to be sacrificed for the greater good.

[Roast]

The Voice of Reason is just trying to instigate. If he's not, he is simply a moron.

 

Recognizing the use of PEDs then and now is not being suckered. Realizing that and how it helped the game is being pragmatic. Many of us saw it then, much the way we see it in the NFL now. In both cases, is has proven and continues to prove to be a boon to the respective sports. Baseball was in dire straits in the mid nineties. Interest was waning, and revenues were dropping. Without Sosa, the Cubs would not have a $140M dollar payroll today. Baseball in general would not be enjoying the prosperity it is. There would almost certainly be less talent coming into the game. It may have been done out of self interest, but guys like McGwire and Sosa really may have saved the sport.

 

I haven't been suckered. Nuts&Gum hasn't been suckered. J.R. hasn't been suckered.

 

The only true suckers here are the ones who have long lived under the illusion that sport is pure, heroes never cheat, and can't reconcile with the fact that sometimes a little integrity has to be sacrificed for the greater good.

Great, great post. I agree 100%

[XZero771679666304]

Indeed.

 

"There's a sucker born every minute"

 

- P.T. Barnum

 

Agree, all those people who think "the steroid era" is encompassed in the mid 90's to 2005-ish are clearly suckers.

 

I'd be curious to see the Voice of Reason explain how I'm being a "sucker." I fully recognize that PED use did and does exist in baseball. At the same time I recognize that people didn't really have a problem with "steroid baseball" at the time of its peak: in fact, it was the opposite and it arguably brought the game back from the brink. I also recognize that the "steroid era" extends well beyond the relatively small window of time and small group of players that those who decry it the most want to relegate it to.

 

Talk about revisionist history. No one knew the extent of steroid use that was going on. In fact, when Canseco's book came out he was criticized by most for exagerating.

 

"Back from the brink," LOL. Baseball survived for a long time without steroids and currently has record attendance with the HR #'s way because of drug testing and much less steroid use. While enriching the cheaters, steroids made a mockery of the game and some of its long held records.

 

Jesus, how naive.

 

Are you going to play the same card when it comes out that many modern day record setter in the NFL were thoroughly juiced? Do you really think that MLB players have stopped using PEDs? Do you actually think that steroid use was only confined to a 10 year period? Or that players in the past wouldn't pounced on them if they had been available then? That there won't be the next cheat no one has caught on to yet, just the way steroids were?

 

Do you really think that MLB and the players would respond to Canseco by agreeing completely? Do you believe Selig and Co. had no idea what was going on? Or that is is unthinkable that they might have allowed it to continued because they saw how much it was helping the sport?

 

Do you not recognize that while MLB has had difficulties before the mid nineties, it never had to deal with such huge competition from other sports for public interest? It easier to survive tough times when you are the national pastime. That hasn't really been true for a couple decades, at least.

 

And you're calling us suckers?

[Sammy Sofa]

Couldn't agree more with everything XZero is posting in this thread.

 

VoR is clearly someone who wants to run around with blinders on and think that steroid use was relegated to a relative small group of players who can be easily villified and that the use of steroids in general can be limited to a small period in time. He's never going to concede that PED's were something widely used, likely for decades, and that it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that most people involved in the game knew what was going on, especially when it was at it's height. It was an open secret at best. This wasn't something like a corked bat, where it's typically a player acting on their own. This is something that involved at least hundreds of players, coaches, trainers, doctors and managers for a long time.

 

I have to wonder if VoR has the same ridiculously black and white outrage over the scores of amphetamine users the game has played host to over the decades.

[fromthestretch]

Joe Posnanski wrote a very good (albeit, very long) piece on steroids and home runs, inspired by some recent Carlton Fisk comments:

 

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/01/19/iron-fisk/#more-3011#more-3011

[DiamondMind]

I'm not sure I necessarily like it, but I also agree with just about everything XZero said in the last two posts. It's just the objective truth.

[Pushfrog98]

I enjoyed what Adolphus A Busch IV had to say about it:

 

"McGwire is not apologizing for his deceit, only for the embarrassment that came from his admission of having previously lied,'' Busch IV said. "The timing of his announcement at the start of a new baseball season has allowed him to hide behind the frenzy of a new Cardinal season and the blinding faith of Cardinal loyalists.''

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-0122-rogers-mark-mcgwire--20100121,0,1973932.column

[Sever82]

Ha ha wow Mcgwire is dumb for thinking he would lie and everyone would believe him.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4849158

 

Nice piece on the dealer who gave Mcgwire his roids.

[SouthSideRyan]

Some fun quotes in those ESPN stories

 

"We didn't actually see McGwire or Canseco do steroids, but when you shower with a player every day, you notice their body and muscular [transformation], and these guys got big overnight," Henderson said in an interview with WXOS (101.1 FM) radio in St. Louis, according to the Post-Dispatch. "We kind of knew something was up. We're not dumb."

 

But Henderson doubted whether La Russa had direct knowledge or even suspected the steroid use.

 

"The manager doesn't shower with us," Henderson said. "We all have clothes on when we're with the manager, but I'm sure he probably figured something was up. But it's not his job to be a cop. He was in quite a quandary. If you accuse a

player of doing steroids and he's not, you're in big trouble."

 

Kinda creepy.

 

"I know a lot of guys in our clubhouse were upset that Sammy came in from right field, from the coaching staff all the way on down," Trachsel said. "It looked great on TV, and that's obviously what everyone keeps seeing. But to have an opposing player during the game congratulate another opposing player, from a player's standpoint, I didn't appreciate it."

 

Was the clubhouse and coaching staff pissed at Mark Grace for the [expletive] eating grin he had shaking his hand and telling him to go back and touch 1B?

 

"That bothered me," Guillen told ESPNChicago.com columnist Melissa Isaacson on Thursday. "First of all, we competed against [McGwire's Oakland teams] in the '90s, and when I saw that, I was like, wow, I could have been in more playoffs, maybe I'd have had the chance to be in the World Series because we had a pretty good ballclub.

 

The White Sox finished 2nd to the A's once. By 9 games. Maybe if Guillen wasn't such a shitty hitter, they could've made the world series. I bet Ron Kittle is pissed at you Ozzie.

 

"I'll be very honest," Yount said in Friday's edition of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "In the fact that there was no testing and if there were benefits from it, it would have been very difficult.

 

"As competitive people and doing it for a living like we did, it's easy to [criticize] and not having to make those decisions," Yount said. "Those guys didn't get to that level of athletic expertise without being very competitive. I'm sure there's some out there who wouldn't do it, but it would've been very difficult if there were no rules against it to honestly say you wouldn't have done it."

 

You're never gonna make it as a retired ballplayer acting like that Robin.

[NonProfitCow]

I enjoyed what Adolphus A Busch IV had to say about it:

 

"McGwire is not apologizing for his deceit, only for the embarrassment that came from his admission of having previously lied,'' Busch IV said. "The timing of his announcement at the start of a new baseball season has allowed him to hide behind the frenzy of a new Cardinal season and the blinding faith of Cardinal loyalists.''

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-0122-rogers-mark-mcgwire--20100121,0,1973932.column

Adolphus Busch was really flexing his brain muscles.

 

"McGwire has chosen to come out of the closet at the perfect time -- alongside a manager who also refuses to be honest, to the fans or to the game itself," Busch said. "After all, why would Tony La Russa hire a hitting coach whose lifetime batting average was only .263?"

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, I'm sure Busch will next list the scores of guys with amazing averages who became hitting coaches.

[NonProfitCow]

Well, I'm sure Busch will next list the scores of guys with amazing averages who became hitting coaches.

You guys are screwed this year man. Jaramillo only hit .258, and he never made it out of Double A.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

but he didn't do steroids so it's OK

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, I'm sure Busch will next list the scores of guys with amazing averages who became hitting coaches.

You guys are screwed this year man. Jaramillo only hit .258, and he never made it out of Double A.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

Though I'm sure he'd just say that Rudy got screwed because all of those steroid-using thugs kept him from making it to the big show.

[Formerly Snayke]

Adolphus Busch was really flexing his brain muscles.

 

"McGwire has chosen to come out of the closet at the perfect time -- alongside a manager who also refuses to be honest, to the fans or to the game itself," Busch said. "After all, why would Tony La Russa hire a hitting coach whose lifetime batting average was only .263?"

 

Can't expect much more from the guy that came up with Bud Dry.

 

And where does the guy who got off on manslaughter and leading police on a chase get off talking about McGwire's steroid use? Really?

[Mugged By Fluffy]

Adolphus Busch was really flexing his brain muscles.

 

"McGwire has chosen to come out of the closet at the perfect time -- alongside a manager who also refuses to be honest, to the fans or to the game itself," Busch said. "After all, why would Tony La Russa hire a hitting coach whose lifetime batting average was only .263?"

 

 

And where does the guy who got off on manslaughter and leading police on a chase get off talking about McGwire's steroid use? Really?

 

Unless the guy was so beefed up on steroids that they actually assisted in him in eluding the police and him getting off the hook, you can't really compare the two. It's apples and oranges.

[Formerly Snayke]

Unless the guy was so beefed up on steroids that they actually assisted in him in eluding the police and him getting off the hook, you can't really compare the two. It's apples and oranges.

 

What? A girl died in Busch's car while he was drunk. That means he doesn't get to comment on anyone's misdeeds ever.

[17 Seconds]

Adolphus Busch was really flexing his brain muscles.

 

"McGwire has chosen to come out of the closet at the perfect time -- alongside a manager who also refuses to be honest, to the fans or to the game itself," Busch said. "After all, why would Tony La Russa hire a hitting coach whose lifetime batting average was only .263?"

 

 

And where does the guy who got off on manslaughter and leading police on a chase get off talking about McGwire's steroid use? Really?

 

Unless the guy was so beefed up on steroids that they actually assisted in him in eluding the police and him getting off the hook, you can't really compare the two. It's apples and oranges.

 

he's talking about a person of poor character insulting another person for displaying poor character

[17 Seconds]

wait, is that even the same busch who was in the chase?

[Formerly Snayke]

wait, is that even the same busch who was in the chase?

 

Yup, Busch IV.

[The Voice of Reason]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/telander/2007284,CST-SPT-rick24.article

 

Mac a horse's asterisk

Lying, cheating McGwire should visit a veterinarian

 

January 24, 2010

BY RICK TELANDER Sun

 

Here, as the investigative team from the New York Daily News reported in 2005, and re-reported recently, was Mark McGwire's 'roid regimen at one point in his career: ''one-half cc of testosterone cypionate every three days; one cc testosterone enanthate per week; and the veterinary steroids Equipoise and Winstrol V, one quarter cc every three days, injected into the buttocks, one in one cheek, one in the other.''

 

Nice, huh?

 

''Low dosages,'' huh?

 

''Health purposes,'' huh?

 

The special part is the ''veterinary steroids.''

 

Equipoise. As in equestrian and equine. Horse juice. Shot up like it's going into some bug-eyed creature in a stall.

 

''I'm here to be honest,'' McGwire told Bob Costas almost two weeks ago. Without whinnying.

 

What a lying, pitiful, self-indulgent, cowardly human McGwire is.

 

I would try to be clearer, but I can't.

Edited January 25, 2010 by The Voice of Reason

[Sammy Sofa]

I'll bet the VoR claims he hated baseball in the 90's. Edited January 25, 2010 by Sammy Sofa

[The Voice of Reason]

I'll be the VoR claims he hated baseball in the 90's.

 

Pudge and I love getting in your young head. Gotta suck that most of your boyhood heroes were juicers.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-spt-0120-mitchell-fisk-mcgwire--20100119,0,1301492.story

 

Some critics have blamed the media for not being more vigilant during the '80s and '90s. Others say the players who were clean should have exposed the cheats. And some say that Major League Baseball dropped the ball because it took so long to adopt stringent testing.

 

"You don't blame people for not ratting them out; you blame the people who abused the pharmaceutical world," Fisk said. "It's not like you are taking a couple of aspirin and you don't know what's going on. (Non-prescription steroid use has been) a federal offense for a long time, regardless of whether baseball was recognizing it and putting rules into place. The people who did it … they were breaking the law to start with. It doesn't have to be a baseball law. They knew what they were doing and the reason they were doing it. Now they are sorry because they are getting called out."

 

Fisk blasted McGwire, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and other alleged or admitted steroid abusers in baseball, calling McGwire's recent claim that steroids did not help him hit more home runs "a crock."

 

"(McGwire) says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does. It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better," said Fisk, who starred for the Red Sox and White Sox.

 

"Some of these numbers that are out there are really warped. Should they be considered? You saw how McGwire was viewed in the Hall of Fame voting. If you take the length of time that (steroid abusers) use that stuff and subtract 15 or 20 home runs a year for those guys, where are their numbers then?"

 

McGwire, the new Cardinals hitting coach, apologized last week for his steroid use as a player but claimed steroids had nothing to do with him hitting 70 homers in 1998.

 

"That's a crock," Fisk said. "There's a reason they call it performance-enhancing drugs. That's what it does — performance enhancement. You can be good, but it's going to make you better. You can be average, but it is going to make you good. If you are below average, it is going to make you average. Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use (steroids) anymore, they can't play anymore.

[Sammy Sofa]

Sure, sure, act like it wasn't a ton of fun to watch. It's not like all of that vanished because of cranky sportswriters who didn't do their jobs at the time bitching after the fact. I mean, I'm not the one in denial that this was relegated to a relatively small period of time. It's cute how you refuse to accept the idea of widespread PED use outside of what everyone wants to limit the "Steroid Era" to. It's even more adorable how you think you grew up outside of the actual "Steroid Era," or that you witnessed some mythical era of baseball where tons of players and coaches didn't do what they could all the time to bend or break the rules to their advanatge. Your indignation is transparent, completely unrealistic, hypocritical and pathetic.