Re: Theriot should be shopped

[inari]

Speaking of Theriot, what about exploring a trade with the braves that send Theriot and maybe a prospect for Yunel Escobar? Didn't the braves organization and Escobar have a rocky relationship last year?

 

Maybe a prospect? The difference between Escobar and Theriot is that the former is quite good. There's no "maybe" involved with the prospect, and it better be a good one.

[Rob]

I'm not opposed to trading Theriot, but the timing is still a bit off.

 

This team as constructed can still compete in the NL Central. Now, its obvious that the core is aging and we're getting ready to go through a changing of the guard, so I wouldn't exactly commit multiple years to marginal guys in an attempt to go for it one last time. But we can certainly wait until closer to the deadline to see if our guys cant force the issue on us. And who knows what might be available then?

 

And of course, if our team isn't in contention at that point, I wouldn't be opposed to moving many of our pieces. DLee, Aramis, Lilly and Theriot could reap a small fortune of prospects. But that's then and this is now... and right now, I'm not ready to fold on the 2010 season yet. Starting to dismantle this team early just doesn't seem to be the prudent course of action.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not opposed to trading Theriot, but the timing is still a bit off.

 

This team as constructed can still compete in the NL Central. Now, its obvious that the core is aging and we're getting ready to go through a changing of the guard, so I wouldn't exactly commit multiple years to marginal guys in an attempt to go for it one last time. But we can certainly wait until closer to the deadline to see if our guys cant force the issue on us. And who knows what might be available then?

 

And of course, if our team isn't in contention at that point, I wouldn't be opposed to moving many of our pieces. DLee, Aramis, Lilly and Theriot could reap a small fortune of prospects. But that's then and this is now... and right now, I'm not ready to fold on the 2010 season yet. Starting to dismantle this team early just doesn't seem to be the prudent course of action.

 

Except dealing Theriot doesn't even begin to dismantle the team. They would take an offensive hit, with a big defensive upgrade in the short-term. And it would be trading a guy at his highest price. I'm all for waiting until July 31, but my guess is they wouldn't want to make it look like they were giving up the season then (of course, it's not even a guess to say they wouldn't trade him now regardless).

[Sever82]

Speaking of Theriot, what about exploring a trade with the braves that send Theriot and maybe a prospect for Yunel Escobar? Didn't the braves organization and Escobar have a rocky relationship last year?

 

Maybe a prospect? The difference between Escobar and Theriot is that the former is quite good. There's no "maybe" involved with the prospect, and it better be a good one.

 

ummmmm yeah. Dont know why i put the maybe but yeah a prospect. I wouldn't devalue Theriot though, his numbers are pretty solid, Escobar did have a pretty damn good season last year but he's not an elite player. I would imagine it wouldn't take Theriot and Vitters but it would probably take a pretty decent prospect but not one of our top prospects. Like i said in the previous post though, it also depends on the relationship the braves have with him. Which if i remember at one point was a little iffy.

[Guest]

I'm not opposed to trading Theriot, but the timing is still a bit off.

 

This team as constructed can still compete in the NL Central. Now, its obvious that the core is aging and we're getting ready to go through a changing of the guard, so I wouldn't exactly commit multiple years to marginal guys in an attempt to go for it one last time. But we can certainly wait until closer to the deadline to see if our guys cant force the issue on us. And who knows what might be available then?

 

And of course, if our team isn't in contention at that point, I wouldn't be opposed to moving many of our pieces. DLee, Aramis, Lilly and Theriot could reap a small fortune of prospects. But that's then and this is now... and right now, I'm not ready to fold on the 2010 season yet. Starting to dismantle this team early just doesn't seem to be the prudent course of action.

I'm not suggesting to blow things up. Theriot is a complimentary piece, but is not core to the team in any way. If you can get value for him, I don't think the overall decline in production is that severe going to Blanco, Barney or some other stop gap option whether that is all year or until Castro is ready.

[Sever82]

Except dealing Theriot doesn't even begin to dismantle the team. They would take an offensive hit, with a big defensive upgrade in the short-term. And it would be trading a guy at his highest price. I'm all for waiting until July 31, but my guess is they wouldn't want to make it look like they were giving up the season then (of course, it's not even a guess to say they wouldn't trade him now regardless).

 

I'm not for waiting til the deadline to move theriot. Reason being is that i assume the cubs will sign a second baseman before the start of the season. And if they do and Starlin succeeds in the majors before the deadline, other clubs will look at theriot and feel the cubs have to trade him because he doesn't fit on the roster. So they might begin to offer some packages not worth much. I mean Theriot is not going to net you a good package unless he's packaged with something else. But i feel he's worth more now then he will be later on in the year. Unless of course he's having a great season.

[Rob]

I'm not opposed to trading Theriot, but the timing is still a bit off.

 

This team as constructed can still compete in the NL Central. Now, its obvious that the core is aging and we're getting ready to go through a changing of the guard, so I wouldn't exactly commit multiple years to marginal guys in an attempt to go for it one last time. But we can certainly wait until closer to the deadline to see if our guys cant force the issue on us. And who knows what might be available then?

 

And of course, if our team isn't in contention at that point, I wouldn't be opposed to moving many of our pieces. DLee, Aramis, Lilly and Theriot could reap a small fortune of prospects. But that's then and this is now... and right now, I'm not ready to fold on the 2010 season yet. Starting to dismantle this team early just doesn't seem to be the prudent course of action.

I'm not suggesting to blow things up. Theriot is a complimentary piece, but is not core to the team in any way. If you can get value for him, I don't think the overall decline in production is that severe going to Blanco, Barney or some other stop gap option whether that is all year or until Castro is ready.

 

I'd expect the difference between Theriot and his likely replacement to be about one win by the all star break, two wins all season. Does that make him a core piece? No. But it could certainly make a difference in a pennant chase should we find ourselves in position to make a run at it. If we're trying to squeeze the most out of our roster this season (as should always be the goal until we find ourselves not worrying about whether or not we make the playoffs), holding onto Theriot for just a bit longer seems like a good idea.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd expect the difference between Theriot and his likely replacement to be about one win by the all star break, two wins all season. Does that make him a core piece? No. But it could certainly make a difference in a pennant chase should we find ourselves in position to make a run at it. If we're trying to squeeze the most out of our roster this season (as should always be the goal until we find ourselves not worrying about whether or not we make the playoffs), holding onto Theriot for just a bit longer seems like a good idea.

 

Squeezing the most out of the roster includes getting best value. If you can get something for him now that you can't once he starts making $5-6m, why not now? Theriot is not going to be the difference in this season. They will win if Soriano rebounds strongly, Soto doesn't suck and the pitching holds up.

[davell]

I'm not opposed to trading Theriot, but the timing is still a bit off.

 

This team as constructed can still compete in the NL Central. Now, its obvious that the core is aging and we're getting ready to go through a changing of the guard, so I wouldn't exactly commit multiple years to marginal guys in an attempt to go for it one last time. But we can certainly wait until closer to the deadline to see if our guys cant force the issue on us. And who knows what might be available then?

 

And of course, if our team isn't in contention at that point, I wouldn't be opposed to moving many of our pieces. DLee, Aramis, Lilly and Theriot could reap a small fortune of prospects. But that's then and this is now... and right now, I'm not ready to fold on the 2010 season yet. Starting to dismantle this team early just doesn't seem to be the prudent course of action.

I'm not suggesting to blow things up. Theriot is a complimentary piece, but is not core to the team in any way. If you can get value for him, I don't think the overall decline in production is that severe going to Blanco, Barney or some other stop gap option whether that is all year or until Castro is ready.

 

I'd expect the difference between Theriot and his likely replacement to be about one win by the all star break, two wins all season. Does that make him a core piece? No. But it could certainly make a difference in a pennant chase should we find ourselves in position to make a run at it. If we're trying to squeeze the most out of our roster this season (as should always be the goal until we find ourselves not worrying about whether or not we make the playoffs), holding onto Theriot for just a bit longer seems like a good idea.

 

 

While I'm not disagreeing necessarily with what you're saying here, everything truly depends on Castro. It's not totally impossible that he'd put up better numbers than Theriot in 2010 honestly. Not a call anyone can make until ST(and maybe not even then) but it IS a possibility that he could be ready for the full 2010 season. And IF that winds up being the case, we've probably gotten ourselves less in return for Theriot, if we keep him.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I wouldn't trade a 3 WAR player unless I got something significant in return. His relatively safe production in a competitive NLC has quite a bit a value. The Cubs have enough question marks.

[17 Seconds]

I'd expect the difference between Theriot and his likely replacement to be about one win by the all star break, two wins all season. Does that make him a core piece? No. But it could certainly make a difference in a pennant chase should we find ourselves in position to make a run at it. If we're trying to squeeze the most out of our roster this season (as should always be the goal until we find ourselves not worrying about whether or not we make the playoffs), holding onto Theriot for just a bit longer seems like a good idea.

 

Theriot is not going to be the difference in this season.

 

He could be. Like Rob said, the difference between him and his likely replacement would be about 1-2 wins over a full season. We could easily finish 1-2 games out of a playoff spot.

 

Is it likely? Probably not, but it's very possible, and we need all the help we can get to make the playoffs in 2009.

[Cubbie Swagger]

What's wrong with Ryan Theriot? I don't see why people here don't like him. He hits for average and gets on base, and has decent speed, and he's affordable. Not to mention, he plays a generally light-hitting position... so I'd have to say he's above average offensively. I realize he isn't great on defense, and he has no arm, but I still don't feel like he's a weakness. He's a decent top of the order guy. I would focus on upgrading elsewhere and consider Ryan Theriot to be "acceptable" at shortstop.

[davearm2]

Can somebody explain something to me?

 

When discussing defense, many posters here regurgitate UZR scores instinctively. As best I can tell it's widely considered the current gold standard for defensive metrics. So if UZR says, say, Mike Cameron is an excellent CF, then the debate is over and it's a given that Cameron is an excellent CF.

 

When discussing Ryan Theriot's defense, it's a universal truth around here that it sucks.

 

Yet UZR thinks Theriot's defense at SS is above-average: +7.7, +0.7, and +8.3 in his three seasons as the starter.

 

So if we tend to accept the UZR verdict on guys we see play occasionally-to-rarely, then why is it rejected for a guy we see play regularly?

 

Something's not adding up there. Either UZR isn't all it's cracked up to be, or folks' firsthand impressions of Theriot are just plain wrong.

[NCCubFan]

Is it likely? Probably not, but it's very possible, and we need all the help we can get to make the playoffs in 2009.

Starting with a time machine. :D

[fromthestretch]

What's wrong with Ryan Theriot? I don't see why people here don't like him. He hits for average and gets on base, and has decent speed, and he's affordable. Not to mention, he plays a generally light-hitting position... so I'd have to say he's above average offensively. I realize he isn't great on defense, and he has no arm, but I still don't feel like he's a weakness. He's a decent top of the order guy. I would focus on upgrading elsewhere and consider Ryan Theriot to be "acceptable" at shortstop.

 

He's only a decent top of the order guy if he produces like he did in 2008. If he hits like he did in 2009, he's a #8 hitter.

[soapy]

What's wrong with Ryan Theriot? I don't see why people here don't like him. He hits for average and gets on base, and has decent speed, and he's affordable. Not to mention, he plays a generally light-hitting position... so I'd have to say he's above average offensively. I realize he isn't great on defense, and he has no arm, but I still don't feel like he's a weakness. He's a decent top of the order guy. I would focus on upgrading elsewhere and consider Ryan Theriot to be "acceptable" at shortstop.

 

I wouldn't say he's really a "weakness" either (particularly compared with other potential in-house options), but I'd say his production is nearly replaceable with the pieces they have once defense is factored in. It's not about not liking him so much as trying to see if you can capitalize on his (perceived or real) current value to other teams. He's not likely to be an important piece to the puzzle for this team so it might make sense to see what you can get for him while he's still relatively cheap.

[dew1679666265]

Can somebody explain something to me?

 

When discussing defense, many posters here regurgitate UZR scores instinctively. As best I can tell it's widely considered the current gold standard for defensive metrics. So if UZR says, say, Mike Cameron is an excellent CF, then the debate is over and it's a given that Cameron is an excellent CF.

 

When discussing Ryan Theriot's defense, it's a universal truth around here that it sucks.

 

Yet UZR thinks Theriot's defense at SS is above-average: +7.7, +0.7, and +8.3 in his three seasons as the starter.

 

So if we tend to accept the UZR verdict on guys we see play occasionally-to-rarely, then why is it rejected for a guy we see play regularly?

 

Something's not adding up there. Either UZR isn't all it's cracked up to be, or folks' firsthand impressions of Theriot are just plain wrong.

 

I tend to use UZR as a guide. It's a nice number to use to either back up a generally accepted position (Cameron's defense, for instance) or to, perhaps, raise a question with a popular idea (that Theriot's defense sucks).

 

It's not the be-all, end-all to me of defensive ratings, but it's a useful guide that, mixed with first-hand observations and whatever else we can look at, gives us a better picture than we had previously. Personally, I don't think Theriot's defense is as bad as many on here make it out to be. He's certainly not stellar, but it's not a weight on his offensive numbers either.

[dew1679666265]

What's wrong with Ryan Theriot? I don't see why people here don't like him. He hits for average and gets on base, and has decent speed, and he's affordable. Not to mention, he plays a generally light-hitting position... so I'd have to say he's above average offensively. I realize he isn't great on defense, and he has no arm, but I still don't feel like he's a weakness. He's a decent top of the order guy. I would focus on upgrading elsewhere and consider Ryan Theriot to be "acceptable" at shortstop.

 

As long as he's cheap, Theriot is fine to me. He's not a great hitter by any means, but as a cheap, bottom of the order hitter, he's ok. That said, if a deal comes around where we can better ourselves by trading Theriot, we should do it.

 

The problem people have with Theriot offensively is that while his OBP is decent (career .356, .343 last year), it's normally not enough to make up for a complete lack of any real power (he hasn't slugged over .400 since 2006).

 

Like grassbass said, if he can replicate the .387 OBP he put up in 2008, he's quite valuable at the top of the order. Otherwise, he's simply an ok player that should be in the lower part of the order.

[flyseye]

Article

 

You should have left the Bradley part out. It taints everything else you wrote by making it appear it was the only reason you wrote the article in the first place.

[Guest]

Can somebody explain something to me?

 

When discussing defense, many posters here regurgitate UZR scores instinctively. As best I can tell it's widely considered the current gold standard for defensive metrics. So if UZR says, say, Mike Cameron is an excellent CF, then the debate is over and it's a given that Cameron is an excellent CF.

 

When discussing Ryan Theriot's defense, it's a universal truth around here that it sucks.

 

Yet UZR thinks Theriot's defense at SS is above-average: +7.7, +0.7, and +8.3 in his three seasons as the starter.

 

So if we tend to accept the UZR verdict on guys we see play occasionally-to-rarely, then why is it rejected for a guy we see play regularly?

 

Something's not adding up there. Either UZR isn't all it's cracked up to be, or folks' firsthand impressions of Theriot are just plain wrong.

 

I've never really studied UZR, but I believe what the people here (TT, Rob, etc...) extract from the information that UZR provides. I think I remember someone saying that UZR doesn't put enough weight on certain components of defense, like throwing arm.

 

Basing Theriot's defense by actually watching him, I trust that you to have been able to gather that Theriot isn't horrible at gathering up balls with his glove. However, his range is mediocre at best and his throwing arm is way below average. The range and the arm is what converts so many high school and college shortstops into 2b's and CF's in the majors.

 

He's been a serviceable SS since he came up, but he is playing out of position. His better defensive position would be 2b. He actually played more games at 2b throughout his minor league career than he did at SS. And it's not like we had all these awesome SS's in our system pushing him over to 2b while he was making his way through the minors. :blink:

[jersey cubs fan]

What's wrong with Ryan Theriot? I don't see why people here don't like him. He hits for average and gets on base, and has decent speed, and he's affordable. Not to mention, he plays a generally light-hitting position... so I'd have to say he's above average offensively. I realize he isn't great on defense, and he has no arm, but I still don't feel like he's a weakness. He's a decent top of the order guy. I would focus on upgrading elsewhere and consider Ryan Theriot to be "acceptable" at shortstop.

 

What's wrong with him is he's not good. He's fine to fill a spot at a cheap price. He's a 7 or 8 hole hitter that a good lineup should not have anywhere near the top. His supposed offensive strength is that he gets on base, but he doesn't get on base all that frequently and is a frequently GIDP maker. He can't run the bases worth a crap, whether you are talking about his horrible base stealing or simply going base to base. He makes boneheaded moves with regularity, and yet he's praised by so many as some sort of mythical gutsy "plays the game the right way" savant.

 

He's an okay roster filler player who has already passed his prime and didn't do all that much and will lose most of his value as he rises up the arbitration ladder. 30+ year old middle infielders have a tough time maintaining their defense as well as their offensive abilities especially if it's predicated on speed. Theriot is poised for a return to his absolutely piss poor 2007 and that's frightening. Maybe that doesn't happen this year, but odds are that given the Cubs and the way they operate, they will allow it to happen while he's under contract with the team and highly compensated.

 

I don't hate Theriot the player as much as I hate the absolute stupid level of love the fans give him for doing very little, and I hate people who wear Affliction t-shirts.

[fromthestretch]

Article

 

You should have left the Bradley part out. It taints everything else you wrote by making it appear it was the only reason you wrote the article in the first place.

 

It's actually very relevant to the discussion. A lot of people wanted Bradley run out of town because of his character (or lack thereof). Why shouldn't Theriot's character come into question for the way he handled the situation?

[Guest]

I'd love to see Theriot get traded to Seattle.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd love to see Theriot get traded to Seattle.

 

As a team that is aggressively pushing the defense first mentality, I can't see that happening. Whether he's bad, weak, average or above average, it's safe to say he's not good.

[dew1679666265]

I'd love to see Theriot get traded to Seattle.

 

As a team that is aggressively pushing the defense first mentality, I can't see that happening. Whether he's bad, weak, average or above average, it's safe to say he's not good.

 

If they're looking to trade Jose Lopez, they could acquire Theriot and move him to second - where he'd be pretty good defensively.