Re: Bears Offseason Thread

[Sammy Sofa]

there's really no point in arguing with people who hate jay cutler. it all comes back to 26 interceptions blah blah blah. and while nobody is saying he had a good year, most people believe he can turn it around. except those who either liked kyle orton, think the bears would have better off with the first round picks (history shows otherwise), or feel burned by cutler because they thought the bears would do better.

 

Yes. People who dislike quarterbacks who lead the league in interceptions are just having agendas, whereas fans of a team who insist that everything is okay are the objective ones.

 

You really can see nothing except the picks? Or even the larger context of those picks? Nobody is saying Cutler doesn't have his obvious flaws, but Jesus Christ, you're trying to narrow your argument to a single, blinders-on point as hard as possible.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

who said that everything is okay? the bears sucked last year and cutler had a bad year. but most people on here can see that it was one year and still believe a guy who made the pro bowl the year before can turn it around.

 

Of course he can turn it around. And I'm saying when you give up two first-round picks and a large contract, it's reasonable to expect more than "can turn it around."

[jersey cubs fan]

So because the Bears turned into a bad team from poor drafting, they should just stop trying to draft good players, despite the fact that drafting good players in the first round has been pretty much the only way anyone ever built a championship-caliber team in the last two or three decades?

 

They didn't just give away draft picks or choose not to use them. They traded them for a young franchise QB, who they still have under contract at a reasonable cost for a few years.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

They didn't just give away draft picks or choose not to use them. They traded them for a young franchise QB, who they still have under contract at a reasonable cost for a few years.

 

Is he a franchise quarterback? That's still up in the air, at best.

[jersey cubs fan]

They didn't just give away draft picks or choose not to use them. They traded them for a young franchise QB, who they still have under contract at a reasonable cost for a few years.

 

Is he a franchise quarterback? That's still up in the air, at best.

 

He might not be a top tier franchise QB, but there is no question that he was a franchise QB when they acquired him and he still is a franchise QB 11 months later.

[Sammy Sofa]

who said that everything is okay? the bears sucked last year and cutler had a bad year. but most people on here can see that it was one year and still believe a guy who made the pro bowl the year before can turn it around.

 

Of course he can turn it around. And I'm saying when you give up two first-round picks and a large contract, it's reasonable to expect more than "can turn it around."

 

Why? The team around him was horrible. It's rare to have a QB who can basically carry the entire team by himself, and the offense was horrendous on every possible level, yet despite that he still threw more TD's than he ever has and racked up 3600+ yards. That doesn't negate the picks, but surely you can see how the entire situation needs to be evaluated as opposed to focusing on on the interceptions uber alles. The year shows that this is a QB that you need to actually somewhat tailor the team to him as opposed to just throwing him in an offense acting like it's still 1952 and expecting miracles.

[Sosa21MVP]

Comparing the Bears to the Redskins because they are signing Peppers is just ridiculous. To be the Redskins they would have to be pursuing big name FA every season for a few years. The Bears normally try to plug holes mainly via the draft but right now the ship has too many leaks and the Bears have too few draft picks to address them all. That and Lovie/Angelo have the heat on them now.........so screw it. Spend the money, fill some holes and hopefully it pays off this season. If not, oh well we get a new coaching staff and maybe even a new GM. I call it a no lose situation. :D)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Why? The team around him was horrible. It's rare to have a QB who can basically carry the entire team by himself, and the offense was horrendous on every possible level, yet despite that he still threw more TD's than he ever has and racked up 3600+ yards. That doesn't negate the picks, but surely you can see how the entire situation needs to be evaluated as opposed to focusing on on the interceptions uber alles.

 

Of course. I've never said it couldn't. But I am saying that I expect a "franchise quarterback" to be better than that *regardless* of who is around him.

 

List the guys in the league who you think are "franchise quarterbacks" and imagine swapping them into the 2009 Bears. How many of them have better seasons than Cutler's? I'm imagining a lot.

 

We swapped out Orton/Grossman for Cutler. We got 600 extra yards, 7 extra touchdown passes and 14 extra interceptions with pretty close to the same offensive personnel. That's not enough better to justify the idea that Cutler is a franchise quarterback going forward. He might be, but in my opinion, most of you are way too confident that it will happen.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think your expectations of a franchise QB are simply way too high. A franchise QB is not necessarily an elite QB.

 

And saying that Denver and Chicago have "pretty much the same offensive personel" is vastly overstating that comparison.

[David]

I think your expectations of a franchise QB are simply way too high. A franchise QB is not necessarily an elite QB.

 

And saying that Denver and Chicago have "pretty much the same offensive personel" is vastly overstating that comparison.

 

 

He's saying that Bears + Orton/Grossman had pretty much the same personnel as Bears + Cutler.

[soapy]

I still don't understand why you continue to ignore his play prior to 2009, Kyle. You are acting like his 26 picks in 2009 are the only indicator for his future performance and it's going to take some sort of monumental overhall of his game for him to be a top-tier quarterback.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I think your expectations of a franchise QB are simply way too high. A franchise QB is not necessarily an elite QB.

 

And saying that Denver and Chicago have "pretty much the same offensive personel" is vastly overstating that comparison.

 

No, I'm saying the 2008 and 2009 Bears had pretty much the same offensive personnel.

 

And the combo of Orton/Grossman vs. Cutler came out to the difference I stated: 600 yards, 7 touchdowns, 14 interceptions.

 

I'd rather have the performance we got out of Orton/Grossman in 2008 than the one we got out of Cutler in 2009, and "Orton was better under similar circumstances" is about the worst thing I can think of to say about a quarterback.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think your expectations of a franchise QB are simply way too high. A franchise QB is not necessarily an elite QB.

 

And saying that Denver and Chicago have "pretty much the same offensive personel" is vastly overstating that comparison.

 

I think he's saying that Grossman/Orton had the same personel that Cutler had to work with. Of course, the weakest spots of the line were one year older, Forte disappeared, the double tight end strength was negated by Clark's injuries, the WR depth chart turned over and Hester missed time with injury as well.

 

But yeah, sure, other than that it was the exact same thing.

Edited March 5, 2010 by jersey cubs fan

[Careless]

The Bears should be the most profitable NFL teams in that they have the second biggest market all too themselves

It doesn't work like that. NY isn't split evenly, and even if it was, it's got more than twice as many people in it, plus a decent non-metro area of fans, while we're surrounded by packers to the north, empty land to the W and S, and Indy territory to the E. Half of Texas is significantly more people than the Chicago area, and the Cowboys get more than half that population. New England has 13 million+ people, etc. There are good reasons the Bears aren't making as much money as other teams, in addition to their failure to capitalize on their status and location.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think your expectations of a franchise QB are simply way too high. A franchise QB is not necessarily an elite QB.

 

And saying that Denver and Chicago have "pretty much the same offensive personel" is vastly overstating that comparison.

 

No, I'm saying the 2008 and 2009 Bears had pretty much the same offensive personnel.

 

And the combo of Orton/Grossman vs. Cutler came out to the difference I stated: 600 yards, 7 touchdowns, 14 interceptions.

 

I'd rather have the performance we got out of Orton/Grossman in 2008 than the one we got out of Cutler in 2009, and "Orton was better under similar circumstances" is about the worst thing I can think of to say about a quarterback.

 

Orton was behind an offensive line that performed better and a running game that performed much better. Simply saying that they had the same personel like the results were the same is not realistic.

[Tyrant]

Kyle ruins everything. Just stop talking.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Okay, simple question.

 

29 other starting QBs in the league.

 

How many of them, swapped into the 2009 Bears offense, have better seasons than Cutler's?

[Butterscup1679666578]

The player rep for free agent Julius Peppers says that the Eagles have made an offer, but the Bears are the first stop.

 

Agent Carl Carey is simply doing his job by using the media to jack up his client's pricetag. Previous reports have stated that the Peppers is too pricey for the Eagles' taste. If the deal with the Bears somehow falls through, Carey claims the Eagles would be next up.

[mul21]

Small point, but championship teams don't get built on 1st round picks. Yes, they're important, but they get built by finding great value in your 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks. Guys who aren't necessarily superstars, but guys who start and contribute for a decent period of time and don't cost a ton of money.

[Sammy Sofa]

Okay, simple question.

 

29 other starting QBs in the league.

 

How many of them, swapped into the 2009 Bears offense, have better seasons than Cutler's?

 

Not many. I'd say maybe 4-5. Maybe.

 

And I'm assuming by "better" you're not only meaning "less picks," right?

[soapy]

Okay, simple question.

 

29 other starting QBs in the league.

 

How many of them, swapped into the 2009 Bears offense, have better seasons than Cutler's?

 

I have no idea how to answer that question, but i don't think it would be many.

 

And honestly, it doesn't matter. We're talking about 2010 and beyond and how Cutler is likely to perform. The value of the trade isn't determined by his first season only, which is what I've been saying over and over again.

 

At this point I'm surprised you haven't stated his record as a starting QB to try to prove your point.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Okay, simple question.

 

29 other starting QBs in the league.

 

How many of them, swapped into the 2009 Bears offense, have better seasons than Cutler's?

 

Not many. I'd say maybe 4-5. Maybe.

 

And I'm assuming by "better" you're not only meaning "less picks," right?

 

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tyrant]

Okay, simple question.

 

29 other starting QBs in the league.

 

How many of them, swapped into the 2009 Bears offense, have better seasons than Cutler's?

 

I'd say may 6-7 guys, guaranteed. Beyond that, I don't think it's a sure bet than anyone else would have done better.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I have no idea how to answer that question, but i don't think it would be many.

 

And that's where I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

And honestly, it doesn't matter. We're talking about 2010 and beyond and how Cutler is likely to perform. The value of the trade isn't determined by his first season only, which is what I've been saying over and over again.

 

There are certain levels of awful that are so jarring that it completely upsets previous projections. The plexiglass principle is true to a point, but if somethings enough of an outlier, it probably means you need to adjust your expectations.

 

At this point I'm surprised you haven't stated his record as a starting QB to try to prove your point.

 

Teams win games. Quarterbacks do not.

[soapy]

I'll give it a try. I mean, this exercise can only be purely subjective, but whatever:

 

P. Manning (If he could survive the beating that Cutler took)

Brees

Brady

Roethlisberger

Rogers, Ryan or Rivers maybe? I don't think so but I'm trying to be generous.