There is NO excuse for this train wreck.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

hendry and lou aren't to blame for this debacle.

 

if hendry kept DeRo, didn't shell out money for garbage like Miles, if the cubs didn't fetishize the wondrous talents of Patton, if the Cubs had signed Dunn instead of Bradley (even though this move would supposedly be impossible due to the financial implications of keeping DeRosa's salary. or something), would things really be that different? i don't think so. soriano is still patterson-esque, a-ram is still injured, kosuke is still spinning himself into the ground, soto is still a shell of his former self.

 

but oh i forgot hendry is fat and dumb lol let's fire him that fatso worst GM in baseball fatty fat fat fat. fat.

 

firing lou isn't going to solve anything. he's definitely not a terrible manager, and he's definitely not great. he's alright. and anyways, we already did made our token firing to try and shake things up.

 

when you fire someone, you have to bring in a replacement, and there's no reason to believe that the cubs are going to bring someone in that is going to wave their wand and fix everything. bob brenly... give me a break. unless the manager is a complete and utter abomination (dusty baker), they really don't matter that much.

 

i'm all for criticizing lou & hendry, i just wish there was some grey area between "BandWGNs" and sending someone to the guillotine.

 

maybe the cubs just need to rent out the 43rd floor of the Hilton and have a mass slumpbusting party. makes more sense than firin' everybody.

[nick23]

Just throwing this out there but do you think working with Len the las few years would have any affect on how Brenly would manage in the future? Maybe Len's saber mentality has changed some of Brenly's views on how the game should be played? Or do you think Brenly thinks Len is a dork that knows nothing about real baseball because he's never played it? Probably the latter.

[Sammy Sofa]

Just throwing this out there but do you think working with Len the las few years would have any affect on how Brenly would manage in the future? Maybe Len's saber mentality has changed some of Brenly's views on how the game should be played? Or do you think Brenly thinks Len is a dork that knows nothing about real baseball because he's never played it? Probably the latter.

 

I'm not going to assume Bob's opinions on Len, but simply based on what Bob talks about in the booth it doesn't sound like he's budged much, if at all, from his old philosophies.

[Exile on Waveland]

Superior players/performance is irrelevant? That's certainly a novel concept.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

Superior players/performance is irrelevant? That's certainly a novel concept.

 

of course not. but if you honestly think that the moves hendry made in the offseason are bad enough to have wrecked this season, you're nuts. when the entire of core of an offense inexplicably sucks and is injured, you're not going to win games. that's my point. hendry did make some bad moves, but they are not the reason this team is so painful to watch right now.

[Sammy Sofa]

Superior players/performance is irrelevant? That's certainly a novel concept.

 

of course not. but if you honestly think that the moves hendry made in the offseason are bad enough to have wrecked this season, you're nuts. when the entire of core of an offense inexplicably sucks and is injured, you're not going to win games. that's my point. hendry did make some bad moves, but they are not the reason this team is so painful to watch right now.

 

Granted, some things likely would have played out the same, like Soriano to this point, Aramis' injury and Fukudome regressing yet again. But on the flipside of that, it's a pretty safe bet that Dunn's production would be much more than Bradley's to this point and DeRosa clearly would have outperformed Miles and Fontenot.

[Irrelevant Dude]

I don't mind Lou but who would be a viable replacement if came to it? I'm sure Trammel would become the guy for the time being, but who would be considered for 2010? Sandberg?

 

I'm just as pissed as everyone else but firing Lou isn't going to do much. I think he's done after the season anyway because he just doesn't seem like the passion is there anymore.

 

Likely managerial candidates:

 

Alan Trammel

Bob Brenly

Larry Rothschild

Ryne Sandberg

Steve Stone?

Davey Johnson?

Willie Randolph

 

I'm sure there are some young candidates I'm not thinking of, but this would be the primary group, I suspect.

 

Jody Davis.

Even though he is my namesake, I've never really seen Davis as a major league managerial candidate. I'm not sure what his relationship is with Sandberg, but I could picture him as a base coach under Ryne.

[dew1679666265]

So basically, like every other NL manager.

 

More to an extreme with Brenly, I think.

[ChiCubsfan0502]

http://www.nozze-in.com/album/sport/immagini/TN_Bob_Brenly.JPG

"Time for the hit and run".

 

I like Brenly and I hope they give him a shot after Lou resigns after this year.

[DiamondMind]

The main problem a lot of people have with Brenly is that he'd likely be a very hands-on manager - i.e. lots of sac bunts, double switches, steals, hits and runs, etc.

 

 

Oh, you mean a manager who is aggressive and plays smart baseball? That's a problem? :scratch:

 

Lots of sac bunts, steals, and hits and runs is not smart baseball. It's usually dumb baseball.

 

I just caught this comment. What a stupid viewpoint. No offense, but seriously, that's stupid. I'm sick and tired of people deferring ONLY to sabr and totally discounting things like bunts, steals, the small things in the game. The 2009 Cubs are one of the laziest, stupidest, most fundamentally [expletive] teams I've ever witnessed. How in the blue hell could things get any worse by steering the offense away from the K or 3R HR mentality?

 

Seriously, I get so pissed off reading comments like this. I don't understand it. Help me understand. You guys realize we play in the NL right? There is huge value to all those "dumb baseball" strategies like steals, bunting, etc. Have you watched the Dodgers this year? Did you watch the Rays this year or last? Have you watched the Cubs this year? Yea.

 

A SMART baseball mind would combine both sabremetrics with old school philosophies. Taking one side completely and dismissing the other as "stupid" IS stupid. Can't you rationalize anything?

[jersey cubs fan]

The main problem a lot of people have with Brenly is that he'd likely be a very hands-on manager - i.e. lots of sac bunts, double switches, steals, hits and runs, etc.

 

 

Oh, you mean a manager who is aggressive and plays smart baseball? That's a problem? :scratch:

 

Lots of sac bunts, steals, and hits and runs is not smart baseball. It's usually dumb baseball.

 

I just caught this comment. What a stupid viewpoint. No offense, but seriously, that's stupid. I'm sick and tired of people deferring ONLY to sabr and totally discounting things like bunts, steals, the small things in the game. The 2009 Cubs are one of the laziest, stupidest, most fundamentally [expletive] teams I've ever witnessed. How in the blue hell could things get any worse by steering the offense away from the K or 3R HR mentality?

 

Seriously, I get so pissed off reading comments like this. I don't understand it. Help me understand. You guys realize we play in the NL right? There is huge value to all those "dumb baseball" strategies like steals, bunting, etc. Have you watched the Dodgers this year? Did you watch the Rays this year or last? Have you watched the Cubs this year? Yea.

 

There really isn't huge value. They have their place. But being extreme about it, like Baylor was and Brenly would be, is dumb. It runs you into outs.

[DiamondMind]

Just throwing this out there but do you think working with Len the las few years would have any affect on how Brenly would manage in the future? Maybe Len's saber mentality has changed some of Brenly's views on how the game should be played? Or do you think Brenly thinks Len is a dork that knows nothing about real baseball because he's never played it? Probably the latter.

 

I'm not going to assume Bob's opinions on Len, but simply based on what Bob talks about in the booth it doesn't sound like he's budged much, if at all, from his old philosophies.

 

So?

[Sammy Sofa]

The main problem a lot of people have with Brenly is that he'd likely be a very hands-on manager - i.e. lots of sac bunts, double switches, steals, hits and runs, etc.

 

 

Oh, you mean a manager who is aggressive and plays smart baseball? That's a problem? :scratch:

 

Lots of sac bunts, steals, and hits and runs is not smart baseball. It's usually dumb baseball.

 

I just caught this comment. What a stupid viewpoint. No offense, but seriously, that's stupid. I'm sick and tired of people deferring ONLY to sabr and totally discounting things like bunts, steals, the small things in the game. The 2009 Cubs are one of the laziest, stupidest, most fundamentally [expletive] teams I've ever witnessed. How in the blue hell could things get any worse by steering the offense away from the K or 3R HR mentality?

 

Seriously, I get so pissed off reading comments like this. I don't understand it. Help me understand. You guys realize we play in the NL right? There is huge value to all those "dumb baseball" strategies like steals, bunting, etc. Have you watched the Dodgers this year? Did you watch the Rays this year or last? Have you watched the Cubs this year? Yea.

 

There really isn't huge value. They have their place. But being extreme about it, like Baylor was and Brenly would be, is dumb. It runs you into outs.

 

Right. Use those plays and tactics when it's smart, not to blatant excess.

[DiamondMind]

 

There really isn't huge value. They have their place. But being extreme about it, like Baylor was and Brenly would be, is dumb. It runs you into outs.

 

"They have their place". Right, that's what I'm saying. Everything has it's correct context in this game. It's shortsighted and borderline flat out wrong to totally dismiss it as "old" baseball that's no longer viable. Arguing if Brenly takes it to an extreme is a valid debate though, but my point was more about the total dismissal of small ball to sabr/stats.

[dew1679666265]

The main problem a lot of people have with Brenly is that he'd likely be a very hands-on manager - i.e. lots of sac bunts, double switches, steals, hits and runs, etc.

 

 

Oh, you mean a manager who is aggressive and plays smart baseball? That's a problem? :scratch:

 

Lots of sac bunts, steals, and hits and runs is not smart baseball. It's usually dumb baseball.

 

I just caught this comment. What a stupid viewpoint. No offense, but seriously, that's stupid. I'm sick and tired of people deferring ONLY to sabr and totally discounting things like bunts, steals, the small things in the game. The 2009 Cubs are one of the laziest, stupidest, most fundamentally [expletive] teams I've ever witnessed. How in the blue hell could things get any worse by steering the offense away from the K or 3R HR mentality?

 

Seriously, I get so pissed off reading comments like this. I don't understand it. Help me understand. You guys realize we play in the NL right? There is huge value to all those "dumb baseball" strategies like steals, bunting, etc. Have you watched the Dodgers this year? Did you watch the Rays this year or last? Have you watched the Cubs this year? Yea.

 

A SMART baseball mind would combine both sabremetrics with old school philosophies. Taking one side completely and dismissing the other as "stupid" IS stupid. Can't you rationalize anything?

 

I think the word "lots" in his post is the key. Some small ball elements in an offense is fine, but basing your entire offensive philosophy on small ball (like Dusty did and, it appears, Brenly did as well) is detrimental to scoring runs consistently.

 

The Cubs last season didn't do much small ball stuff and yet scored 5 runs a game. Their offense was based off of patience with a focus on OBP and being able to slug the ball. This year, the offense is not struggling because they're not doing enough small ball or because they're "stupid, lazy" or bad fundamentally. The offense is bad because the cornerstone guys (Bradley, Soriano, Soto for the first couple months, etc) are not hitting or getting on base. If they start getting patient, drawing walks and hitting for power again the offense will improve.

[DiamondMind]

 

Right. Use those plays and tactics when it's smart, not to blatant excess.

 

What is the cut off for correct usage, to blatant excess? How is a such a thing measurable?

[DiamondMind]

 

I think the word "lots" in his post is the key. Some small ball elements in an offense is fine, but basing your entire offensive philosophy on small ball (like Dusty did and, it appears, Brenly did as well) is detrimental to scoring runs consistently.

 

The Cubs last season didn't do much small ball stuff and yet scored 5 runs a game. Their offense was based off of patience with a focus on OBP and being able to slug the ball. This year, the offense is not struggling because they're not doing enough small ball or because they're "stupid, lazy" or bad fundamentally. The offense is bad because the cornerstone guys (Bradley, Soriano, Soto for the first couple months, etc) are not hitting or getting on base. If they start getting patient, drawing walks and hitting for power again the offense will improve.

 

Regardless of if our offense returns to form or not, I still have major issues with the offensive philosophy of this team. It starts with Soriano, continues with the total lack of speed/aggression/intelligence on the basepaths, and ends with moronic plays like Soto getting thrown out by a mile at 3B the other day.

 

Eh. What's the point. The title of this thread is there's no excuse for this, and well, there isn't. Offensively, this team is embarrassing right now, and we all agree on that.

[dew1679666265]

 

I think the word "lots" in his post is the key. Some small ball elements in an offense is fine, but basing your entire offensive philosophy on small ball (like Dusty did and, it appears, Brenly did as well) is detrimental to scoring runs consistently.

 

The Cubs last season didn't do much small ball stuff and yet scored 5 runs a game. Their offense was based off of patience with a focus on OBP and being able to slug the ball. This year, the offense is not struggling because they're not doing enough small ball or because they're "stupid, lazy" or bad fundamentally. The offense is bad because the cornerstone guys (Bradley, Soriano, Soto for the first couple months, etc) are not hitting or getting on base. If they start getting patient, drawing walks and hitting for power again the offense will improve.

 

Regardless of if our offense returns to form or not, I still have major issues with the offensive philosophy of this team. It starts with Soriano, continues with the total lack of speed/aggression/intelligence on the basepaths, and ends with moronic plays like Soto getting thrown out by a mile at 3B the other day.

 

This year's philosophy is no different than last year's. And last year's scored 5 runs a game and was the best offense in the league. When guys aren't performing at all any offensive philosophy is going to look bad.

 

Over the course of a 162 game season, most players are going to do dumb things. It happens. These same exactly players (Soto, Soriano, etc) were not called dumb players or stupid or lazy last year when they were producing, but I'm sure they made some mistakes last year as well.

[Keener98]

The Dodgers have Hudson, Pierre, Furcal, Martin and others. Tampa Bay last year had Upton, Crawford, and others. Those teams are made up with good baserunners who can steal bases, the Cubs are not. If Brenley were to take over this team right now, we would run into a crap load of outs as we really have nobody on this team worth a crap at stealing, going the other way, etc... This team is made up to hit their way to score runs

[DiamondMind]

 

I think the word "lots" in his post is the key. Some small ball elements in an offense is fine, but basing your entire offensive philosophy on small ball (like Dusty did and, it appears, Brenly did as well) is detrimental to scoring runs consistently.

 

The Cubs last season didn't do much small ball stuff and yet scored 5 runs a game. Their offense was based off of patience with a focus on OBP and being able to slug the ball. This year, the offense is not struggling because they're not doing enough small ball or because they're "stupid, lazy" or bad fundamentally. The offense is bad because the cornerstone guys (Bradley, Soriano, Soto for the first couple months, etc) are not hitting or getting on base. If they start getting patient, drawing walks and hitting for power again the offense will improve.

 

Regardless of if our offense returns to form or not, I still have major issues with the offensive philosophy of this team. It starts with Soriano, continues with the total lack of speed/aggression/intelligence on the basepaths, and ends with moronic plays like Soto getting thrown out by a mile at 3B the other day.

 

This year's philosophy is no different than last year's. And last year's scored 5 runs a game and was the best offense in the league. When guys aren't performing at all any offensive philosophy is going to look bad.

 

Over the course of a 162 game season, most players are going to do dumb things. It happens. These same exactly players (Soto, Soriano, etc) were not called dumb players or stupid or lazy last year when they were producing, but I'm sure they made some mistakes last year as well.

 

I know it's no different than last year. I had problems with it last year too, we just had a lot of amazing single seasons from players (Soto, Edmonds, etc). It's no surprise to me that when that offensive prowess regressed, it would do so in a major way.

 

But I don't agree with the statement that "when guys aren't performing, any philosophy looks bad". That's simply not true. You can see promise, intelligence, signs that the offense "gets it" but for one reason or another isn't executing at the given time. No..this team is just completely lost offensively. There's no plans for single AB's, once we actually manage to get people on base, there's no advancement of the runners, no stolen bases, no pressure on the defense. Too many K's. Not enough walks. Too many attempted 3R blasts, not enough opposite field singles.

[DiamondMind]

The Dodgers have Hudson, Pierre, Furcal, Martin and others. Tampa Bay last year had Upton, Crawford, and others. Those teams are made up with good baserunners who can steal bases, the Cubs are not. If Brenley were to take over this team right now, we would run into a crap load of outs as we really have nobody on this team worth a crap at stealing, going the other way, etc... This team is made up to hit their way to score runs

 

I don't agree with this either. There's nothing at all from a personnel standpoint stopping this team from running better on the basepaths, being more patient at the plate, doing things like hitting to the right side with a runner on 2nd and <2 outs. I could go on and on. We simply don't do these things. We didn't do them last year either, we just hit for a hell of a lot more power.

[A-Cal]

The Dodgers have Hudson, Pierre, Furcal, Martin and others. Tampa Bay last year had Upton, Crawford, and others. Those teams are made up with good baserunners who can steal bases, the Cubs are not. If Brenley were to take over this team right now, we would run into a crap load of outs as we really have nobody on this team worth a crap at stealing, going the other way, etc... This team is made up to hit their way to score runs

 

 

but you would think that a manager would understand the strengths and weaknesses of his ballclub...if he doesn't have a bunch of fleas on his roster, he probably isn't going to want them to run wild on the base paths

 

oh wait...going the other way? you think this is bad philosophy? really?

[DiamondMind]

The Dodgers have Hudson, Pierre, Furcal, Martin and others. Tampa Bay last year had Upton, Crawford, and others. Those teams are made up with good baserunners who can steal bases, the Cubs are not. If Brenley were to take over this team right now, we would run into a crap load of outs as we really have nobody on this team worth a crap at stealing, going the other way, etc... This team is made up to hit their way to score runs

 

 

but you would think that a manager would understand the strengths and weaknesses of his ballclub...if he doesn't have a bunch of fleas on his roster, he probably isn't going to want them to run wild on the base paths

 

Right. It's not like Brenly would be completely rigid and oblivious to his teams strengths or weaknesses. I think it's just really easy (and makes the person who says it appear to look smart) to make the comment that someones "old school" and then totally dismiss them as archaic.

Edited July 1, 2009 by DiamondMind

[ChiCubsfan0502]

Here is the 2001 D-Back roster by most starts: They had guys like Counsel and Durazo off the bench. They basically had a two man rotation and yet Brenly got them to the playoffs with a team that had a perfect balance of speed and power.

 

So, what's wrong with Brenly? How about nothing at all.

 

C Damian Miller (121)

1B Mark Grace (135)

2B Jay Bell (80)

3B Matt Williams (102)

SS Tony Womack (118)

LF Luis Gonzalez (161)

CF Steve Finley (131)

RF Reggie Sanders (119)

 

 

SP Brian Anderson

SP Miguel Batista

SP Robert Ellis

SP Randy Johnson

SP Curt Schilling

 

RP Troy Brohawn

RP Mike Morgan

RP Bret Prinz

RP Erik Sabel

RP Greg Swindell

CL Byung-Hyun Kim

[DiamondMind]

Again, the argument that a manger didnt "earn" a championship because he had schilling and unit or whatever is the stupidest argument ever. I mean just think about the logic of it. OF COURSE winning teams have all-stars, jeez.