Braves aquire Nate McClouth for prospects.

[SouthSideRyan]

At any given moment the 30 smartest willing baseball minds are GMs.

[davearm2]

The contradiction is, the conclusion proves the premise faulty (McLouth's reputation far exceeds his actual value right now).

 

McLouth's reputation/trade value is clearly reflected in the return the Pirates received here, thus disproving the "inflated reputation" theory.

 

I don't know that his value is clearly reflected in the return the Pirates received here. My guess is it is, but it's quite possible they settled for less than what they could have gotten in another deal, especially if they waited until the deadline.

Well there are three possible explanations here:

 

a) this deal accurately reflects the trade value McLouth has around baseball;

b) Huntington didn't perform the due diligence necessary to gauge the trade value McLouth has around baseball, and a better deal was out there that he didn't discover;

c) Huntington knowingly took less than the best offer for his player.

 

C) is laughable, and b) is highly unlikely IMO, especially when we're talking about the Pirates' marquee player. Huntington himself said it was a very difficult decision to trade McLouth, so I doubt he went about the process haphazardly.

 

Trading McLouth now limits the pool of players they could get for him significantly, there are many more teams actively seeking an outfielder in mid to late July than there are at the beginning of June. Not to mention that those additional teams would drive the price up for him. In a sense you can say they got decent value for him, it is after all two Top 10 prospects in Atlanta's system plus a ML ready starter. Problem is that Gorkys Hernandez is a particularly terrible Top 10 prospect, and the other arm isn't stellar either. That's why waiting until another team entered the fray would've been a smarter move. That deal isn't likely to go away by waiting, and if it does, who cares? It was awful to begin with.

I trust you won't be offended that given the choice between you and Neil Huntington, I'm going to go ahead and assume that Huntington has a better pulse on the value Pirates players have around MLB. He gets to actually talk with other GMs, and stuff. Conceivably anyway, he might have a better handle on where things stand, what other teams are interested in McLouth, what they're willing to give up, etc. etc. Just spitballing of course. Maybe I'm wrong and you're the better authority. :D)

[SouthSideRyan]

Davearm2 you're needed in the Sosa thread, it's lost velocity lately.

[SouthSideRyan]

Davearm2 you're needed in the Sosa thread, it's lost velocity lately.

 

Because that thread's full of raging idiocy.

[SouthSideRyan]

Davearm2 you're needed in the Sosa thread, it's lost velocity lately.

 

Because that thread's full of raging idiocy.

 

Which I'm sure you (Davearm2) can provide.

[Vanilla Ice]

Well there are three possible explanations here:

 

a) this deal accurately reflects the trade value McLouth has around baseball;

b) Huntington didn't perform the due diligence necessary to gauge the trade value McLouth has around baseball, and a better deal was out there that he didn't discover;

c) Huntington knowingly took less than the best offer for his player.

 

C) is laughable, and b) is highly unlikely IMO, especially when we're talking about the Pirates' marquee player. Huntington himself said it was a very difficult decision to trade McLouth, so I doubt he went about the process haphazardly.

 

I like how you leave out the most obvious choice, which is that the Pirates FO are poor at their jobs and don't know how to correctly evaluate talent

The fact that you're here posting on a messageboard rather than working in a MLB FO just boggles the mind, since obviously you're much better at evaluating talent, and would do a better job than the current Pirates GM.

I have to say that I absolutely love when this card is played

[Little Slide Rooter]

Quick lunchtime thought:

 

The three guys the Pirates got could go on to hall of fame careers and I still wouldn't like this trade. We basically threw this season away.

 

I don't get it.

 

That's a silly reason to not like it. What don't you get? The Pirates season was thrown away the minute it started. Seriously they weren't going to do anything. And McClouth wasn't the guy who was going to determine if they ever returned to contender status.

 

The Pirates season ended the moment Bonds and Bonilla left town.

 

Too bad the Pirates dont have any money. Imagine them with Aramis Ramirez, Bay, Nady, McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, LaRoche, and Ryan Doumit. The NL Central could have spent a lot of years looking up at them

[Jake]

We certainly didn't miss Nate today.

 

My not getting it post was frustration. I'm still frustrated. I'd have liked to have seen Nate & Cutch playing side by side.

 

Jeff Passan seems to think higher of Gorgys & Locke that you guys do. Morton was a throw in. Locke is left handed, throws hard and has control problems (Sound familiar?)

 

We weren't going anyplace this year. We had an outside shot of a winning record, but weren't going to to win the division. So, on one hand, I understand it. It's just that Andy LaRoche was starting to hit, as was Moss. Get Doumit back, and with what Freddy is doing, a line up of Freddy, Nate, Andy & Brian 2-6 was sounding good. Adam heats up around now, that's 2-7, or move Nate up to 1, or plug Cutch in at 1 (Morgan has gone cold. ). With what our starting pitching is doing.......

 

sigh

[SouthSideRyan]

Quick lunchtime thought:

 

The three guys the Pirates got could go on to hall of fame careers and I still wouldn't like this trade. We basically threw this season away.

 

I don't get it.

 

That's a silly reason to not like it. What don't you get? The Pirates season was thrown away the minute it started. Seriously they weren't going to do anything. And McClouth wasn't the guy who was going to determine if they ever returned to contender status.

 

The Pirates season ended the moment Bonds and Bonilla left town.

 

Too bad the Pirates dont have any money. Imagine them with Aramis Ramirez, Bay, Nady, McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, LaRoche, and Ryan Doumit. The NL Central could have spent a lot of years looking up at them

 

As I'm sure Jake will tell you, the Pirates have money. They just won't spend it.

[17 Seconds]

The contradiction is, the conclusion proves the premise faulty (McLouth's reputation far exceeds his actual value right now).

 

McLouth's reputation/trade value is clearly reflected in the return the Pirates received here, thus disproving the "inflated reputation" theory.

 

I don't know that his value is clearly reflected in the return the Pirates received here. My guess is it is, but it's quite possible they settled for less than what they could have gotten in another deal, especially if they waited until the deadline.

Well there are three possible explanations here:

 

a) this deal accurately reflects the trade value McLouth has around baseball;

b) Huntington didn't perform the due diligence necessary to gauge the trade value McLouth has around baseball, and a better deal was out there that he didn't discover;

c) Huntington knowingly took less than the best offer for his player.

 

C) is laughable, and b) is highly unlikely IMO, especially when we're talking about the Pirates' marquee player. Huntington himself said it was a very difficult decision to trade McLouth, so I doubt he went about the process haphazardly.

 

Trading McLouth now limits the pool of players they could get for him significantly, there are many more teams actively seeking an outfielder in mid to late July than there are at the beginning of June. Not to mention that those additional teams would drive the price up for him. In a sense you can say they got decent value for him, it is after all two Top 10 prospects in Atlanta's system plus a ML ready starter. Problem is that Gorkys Hernandez is a particularly terrible Top 10 prospect, and the other arm isn't stellar either. That's why waiting until another team entered the fray would've been a smarter move. That deal isn't likely to go away by waiting, and if it does, who cares? It was awful to begin with.

I trust you won't be offended that given the choice between you and Neil Huntington, I'm going to go ahead and assume that Huntington has a better pulse on the value Pirates players have around MLB. He gets to actually talk with other GMs, and stuff. Conceivably anyway, he might have a better handle on where things stand, what other teams are interested in McLouth, what they're willing to give up, etc. etc. Just spitballing of course. Maybe I'm wrong and you're the better authority. :D)

 

the whole "he's a gm and you're not" argument is the biggest copout ever. as if the fact that he's a gm means you can't criticize the move. a gm that knows more than us gave p juanna pierre 5/50. a gm gave GMJ 5/50. andruw jones got 2/40. barry zito got 126. a gm traded scott kazmir for victor zambrano. were we supposed to shut up and give the gm's that made those moves the benefit of the doubt? i mean, they're gms! we're just internet posters.

 

gm's make awful moves all the time....awful moves that look awful even right when they're made. to give a horrible organization like the pirates any benefit of the doubt when talking about a trade that looks crappy is pretty foolish.

[17 Seconds]

Well there are three possible explanations here:

 

a) this deal accurately reflects the trade value McLouth has around baseball;

b) Huntington didn't perform the due diligence necessary to gauge the trade value McLouth has around baseball, and a better deal was out there that he didn't discover;

c) Huntington knowingly took less than the best offer for his player.

 

C) is laughable, and b) is highly unlikely IMO, especially when we're talking about the Pirates' marquee player. Huntington himself said it was a very difficult decision to trade McLouth, so I doubt he went about the process haphazardly.

 

I like how you leave out the most obvious choice, which is that the Pirates FO are poor at their jobs and don't know how to correctly evaluate talent

The fact that you're here posting on a messageboard rather than working in a MLB FO just boggles the mind, since obviously you're much better at evaluating talent, and would do a better job than the current Pirates GM.

 

 

you're right. no GM in the history of baseball has ever made a move that looked bad enough at the time it was made to say " that's a crappy move". obviously these gms are gods and when a move doesn't work out, it's just because they were unlucky.

 

personally i can't believe the bad luck the angels ran into when they signed sarge jr for 50 mil. there was really no way to know that he'd suck. i don't understand how everybody in the world knew it was a horrible signing at the time. clearly everyone just luckily guessed that he would suck, and really the gm is the one who was on the right track when he signed him.

[UMFan83]

Quick lunchtime thought:

 

The three guys the Pirates got could go on to hall of fame careers and I still wouldn't like this trade. We basically threw this season away.

 

I don't get it.

 

That's a silly reason to not like it. What don't you get? The Pirates season was thrown away the minute it started. Seriously they weren't going to do anything. And McClouth wasn't the guy who was going to determine if they ever returned to contender status.

 

The Pirates season ended the moment Bonds and Bonilla left town.

 

Too bad the Pirates dont have any money. Imagine them with Aramis Ramirez, Bay, Nady, McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, LaRoche, and Ryan Doumit. The NL Central could have spent a lot of years looking up at them

 

Yeah umm... have you ever seen that Ashton Kutcher movie called "Butterfly Effect"?

[Jake]

Quick lunchtime thought:

 

The three guys the Pirates got could go on to hall of fame careers and I still wouldn't like this trade. We basically threw this season away.

 

I don't get it.

 

That's a silly reason to not like it. What don't you get? The Pirates season was thrown away the minute it started. Seriously they weren't going to do anything. And McClouth wasn't the guy who was going to determine if they ever returned to contender status.

 

The Pirates season ended the moment Bonds and Bonilla left town.

 

Too bad the Pirates dont have any money. Imagine them with Aramis Ramirez, Bay, Nady, McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, LaRoche, and Ryan Doumit. The NL Central could have spent a lot of years looking up at them

 

As I'm sure Jake will tell you, the Pirates have money. They just won't spend it.

 

Actually, they are spending money these days. Just not on the major league roster yet. We spent $10 million on the draft last year, going above slot in many rounds. Also, about $5 million (i think) on a new academy in the D.R.

 

They say they'll spend when we're ready to make the next step. I'll believe that when I see it.

[sneakypower]

I didnt pay this particular close attention to these set numbers of McClouths before today.

 

64SB

5 CS

 

Damn. That freaking crazy.

and something like 4 of them are pickoffs, iirc

 

what this trade says to me is that Huntington is trying to build a team with insane defensive efficiency. i dont like the lack of power they're going to have, but hernandez, mccutchen, tabata would cover insane ground, considering their lousy collection of pitchers throughout the organization might be a decent strategy. but they really should have gotten more in return.

[SouthSideRyan]

I didnt pay this particular close attention to these set numbers of McClouths before today.

 

64SB

5 CS

 

Damn. That freaking crazy.

and something like 4 of them are pickoffs, iirc

 

what this trade says to me is that Huntington is trying to build a team with insane defensive efficiency. i dont like the lack of power they're going to have, but hernandez, mccutchen, tabata would cover insane ground, considering their lousy collection of pitchers throughout the organization might be a decent strategy. but they really should have gotten more in return.

 

IMO, the benefit to going with an OF that would cover insane ground, is that you can get great defensive OFs on the cheap. You don't trade your best player so you can have a stud defender in RF.

[Jake]

Two pro-trade opinions in the local papers.

 

FWIW

 

http://www.timesonline.com/articles/2009/06/04/sports/pirates/doc4a289fa00536e118828105.txt

 

http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bobsmizik/archive/2009/06/04/mclouth-deal-bold-gamble-worth-taking.aspx

[davearm2]

Trading McLouth now limits the pool of players they could get for him significantly, there are many more teams actively seeking an outfielder in mid to late July than there are at the beginning of June. Not to mention that those additional teams would drive the price up for him. In a sense you can say they got decent value for him, it is after all two Top 10 prospects in Atlanta's system plus a ML ready starter. Problem is that Gorkys Hernandez is a particularly terrible Top 10 prospect, and the other arm isn't stellar either. That's why waiting until another team entered the fray would've been a smarter move. That deal isn't likely to go away by waiting, and if it does, who cares? It was awful to begin with.

I trust you won't be offended that given the choice between you and Neil Huntington, I'm going to go ahead and assume that Huntington has a better pulse on the value Pirates players have around MLB. He gets to actually talk with other GMs, and stuff. Conceivably anyway, he might have a better handle on where things stand, what other teams are interested in McLouth, what they're willing to give up, etc. etc. Just spitballing of course. Maybe I'm wrong and you're the better authority. :D)

 

the whole "he's a gm and you're not" argument is the biggest copout ever. as if the fact that he's a gm means you can't criticize the move. a gm that knows more than us gave p juanna pierre 5/50. a gm gave GMJ 5/50. andruw jones got 2/40. barry zito got 126. a gm traded scott kazmir for victor zambrano. were we supposed to shut up and give the gm's that made those moves the benefit of the doubt? i mean, they're gms! we're just internet posters.

 

gm's make awful moves all the time....awful moves that look awful even right when they're made. to give a horrible organization like the pirates any benefit of the doubt when talking about a trade that looks crappy is pretty foolish.

 

you're right. no GM in the history of baseball has ever made a move that looked bad enough at the time it was made to say " that's a crappy move". obviously these gms are gods and when a move doesn't work out, it's just because they were unlucky.

 

personally i can't believe the bad luck the angels ran into when they signed sarge jr for 50 mil. there was really no way to know that he'd suck. i don't understand how everybody in the world knew it was a horrible signing at the time. clearly everyone just luckily guessed that he would suck, and really the gm is the one who was on the right track when he signed him.

Try to keep up here, dexter.

 

I trotted out the whole "he's a gm and you're not" argument in response to the notion that anyone on this board has better information about McLouth's trade value than does the Pirates' GM. That has nothing at all to do with making good moves or bad moves.

[davearm2]

Just to be clear, if someone wants to make the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he should've held onto McLouth if that's all he could get for him", then I'll certainly listen to that.

 

What sounds foolish (IMO) is the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he could've gotten more for McLouth."

[Little Slide Rooter]

Quick lunchtime thought:

 

The three guys the Pirates got could go on to hall of fame careers and I still wouldn't like this trade. We basically threw this season away.

 

I don't get it.

 

That's a silly reason to not like it. What don't you get? The Pirates season was thrown away the minute it started. Seriously they weren't going to do anything. And McClouth wasn't the guy who was going to determine if they ever returned to contender status.

 

The Pirates season ended the moment Bonds and Bonilla left town.

 

Too bad the Pirates dont have any money. Imagine them with Aramis Ramirez, Bay, Nady, McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, LaRoche, and Ryan Doumit. The NL Central could have spent a lot of years looking up at them

 

Yeah umm... have you ever seen that Ashton Kutcher movie called "Butterfly Effect"?

 

Nate McClouth CF

Freddy Sanchez 2B

Jason Bay RF

Aramis Ramirez 3B

Xavier Nady LF

Adam Laroche 1B

Ryan Doumit C

Jack Wilson SS

 

Dangerous.

[SouthSideRyan]

Just to be clear, if someone wants to make the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he should've held onto McLouth if that's all he could get for him", then I'll certainly listen to that.

 

What sounds foolish (IMO) is the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he could've gotten more for McLouth."

 

How bout, Huntington's an idiot, he values tools goofs like Gorkys Hernandez and guys who throw hard and can't control it like the A-ball guy. What constitutes more depends on what the individual values.

 

When Dave Littlefield traded Rajai Davis for Matt Morris and his awful contract could he not gotten more for Rajai Davis.(Yes, he could've just released him)

 

When Jim Duquette(Or Jeff Wilpon or Rick Peterson or Al Leiter or whoever pushed that trade through) traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano, was that the best deal he could get for Kazmir, or did whoever pushed for the trade irrationally overvalue Victor Zambrano/irrationally hate Kazmir.

[Ball And Glove]

Apparently Nate McLouth died, judging by how the players are mourning the loss: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4233488

 

On Wednesday, the Pirates dealt McLouth, one of their best players, to the Atlanta Braves for outfielder Gorkys Hernandez, one of their top prospects, along with pitchers Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke.

 

On Thursday, at the clubhouse table where McLouth used to play cards with relievers Sean Burnett and Jesse Chavez, a candle bearing McLouth's uniform No. 13 was lit, along with a photo of him in uniform, the Post-Gazette reported. "We'll miss him," Burnett said.

[davearm2]

Just to be clear, if someone wants to make the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he should've held onto McLouth if that's all he could get for him", then I'll certainly listen to that.

 

What sounds foolish (IMO) is the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he could've gotten more for McLouth."

 

How bout, Huntington's an idiot, he values tools goofs like Gorkys Hernandez and guys who throw hard and can't control it like the A-ball guy. What constitutes more depends on what the individual values.

 

When Dave Littlefield traded Rajai Davis for Matt Morris and his awful contract could he not gotten more for Rajai Davis.(Yes, he could've just released him)

 

When Jim Duquette(Or Jeff Wilpon or Rick Peterson or Al Leiter or whoever pushed that trade through) traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano, was that the best deal he could get for Kazmir, or did whoever pushed for the trade irrationally overvalue Victor Zambrano/irrationally hate Kazmir.

Look let's say Huntington sold McLouth for the baseball equivalent of $1.

 

It's been suggested in this thread that some other team would've gladly offered him more than $1, which strikes me as foolish and naive.

 

There's no need to argue whether the actual players involved are actually worth $2 or 2 cents. The Pirates rated them at $1, and more to the point, they didn't have another offer over $1 out there, or else they would've taken it.

[A-Cal]

Apparently Nate McLouth died, judging by how the players are mourning the loss: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4233488

 

On Wednesday, the Pirates dealt McLouth, one of their best players, to the Atlanta Braves for outfielder Gorkys Hernandez, one of their top prospects, along with pitchers Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke.

 

On Thursday, at the clubhouse table where McLouth used to play cards with relievers Sean Burnett and Jesse Chavez, a candle bearing McLouth's uniform No. 13 was lit, along with a photo of him in uniform, the Post-Gazette reported. "We'll miss him," Burnett said.

 

apparently a, uh, close knit group

[Jake]

Nate McClouth CF

Freddy Sanchez 2B

Jason Bay RF

Aramis Ramirez 3B

Xavier Nady LF

Adam Laroche 1B

Ryan Doumit C

Jack Wilson SS

 

Dangerous.

 

Please stop bringing the Aram trade up> It's like picking at a 6 year old scab at this point. Let it heal, please.

[dew1679666265]

Just to be clear, if someone wants to make the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he should've held onto McLouth if that's all he could get for him", then I'll certainly listen to that.

 

What sounds foolish (IMO) is the argument, "Huntington's an idiot: he could've gotten more for McLouth."

 

How bout, Huntington's an idiot, he values tools goofs like Gorkys Hernandez and guys who throw hard and can't control it like the A-ball guy. What constitutes more depends on what the individual values.

 

When Dave Littlefield traded Rajai Davis for Matt Morris and his awful contract could he not gotten more for Rajai Davis.(Yes, he could've just released him)

 

When Jim Duquette(Or Jeff Wilpon or Rick Peterson or Al Leiter or whoever pushed that trade through) traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano, was that the best deal he could get for Kazmir, or did whoever pushed for the trade irrationally overvalue Victor Zambrano/irrationally hate Kazmir.

Look let's say Huntington sold McLouth for the baseball equivalent of $1.

 

It's been suggested in this thread that some other team would've gladly offered him more than $1, which strikes me as foolish and naive.

 

There's no need to argue whether the actual players involved are actually worth $2 or 2 cents. The Pirates rated them at $1, and more to the point, they didn't have another offer over $1 out there, or else they would've taken it.

 

What if they didn't explore enough to find out if there was a $2 offer to be given?