2008-09 NBA Playoffs

[Sosa21MVP]

Not surprisingly, the one game where they really make a point to give Howard the ball he goes off and completely dominates the game

 

I hate to say it because I don't like players publicly call out their coaches, but he was completely right in demanding the ball. Now that he can seemingly make free throws at a good percentage, he's gonna be unstoppable.

 

Still think they don't match up extraordinarily well with the Lakers though, should be an interesting series. The first few games will really show us what to expect.

 

Since when is 64.7% good? And he's only up about 5% from his season/career averages which is only 1 out of 20 so he hasn't really improved that much.

Relax. In the last few Orlando victories he was nailing free throws, he seems to have the typical big man "if-I -concentrate-real-hard-I-can-make-em" free throw attitude.

 

Its a damn shame everyone in the NBA isn't an automatic 80+% at free throws anyway

 

I wasn't mad or anything, just asking a question.

 

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Even Shaq had a few good games in a row and he never really improved.

 

In Shaq's last game at LSU he was perfect from the line. I believe he attempted at least 11 or 12 free throws in that game too. Reason I remember that is they were playing Indiana in the NCAA Sweet 16. IU won of course. \:D/

[Andy]

Jordan NBA finals appearances his first six years: 0

LeBron NBA finals appearances his first six years: 1

...which is a ridiculous argument because if Jordan was in the west he would have been to multiple finals at this point.

Pretty much what I was going to post. Let's put LeBron in the late-80's to early-90's East, with Boston, Detroit and everybody else and let's see if he can even make it to the conference finals. If MJ was in the current East he'd be working on at least Finals No. 2 and probably more.

 

Because those Lakers teams were just complete pushovers and were annihilated in the finals every year that there's no way the Bulls would have lost to them.

The Bulls CRUSHED the Lakers in 1991 and were one MJ missed shot in OT away from a sweep. Is it so unbelievable to think they'd have either beaten them or avoided them through the West playoffs prior to that year?

[Exile on Waveland]

Not surprisingly, the one game where they really make a point to give Howard the ball he goes off and completely dominates the game

 

I hate to say it because I don't like players publicly call out their coaches, but he was completely right in demanding the ball. Now that he can seemingly make free throws at a good percentage, he's gonna be unstoppable.

 

Still think they don't match up extraordinarily well with the Lakers though, should be an interesting series. The first few games will really show us what to expect.

 

Since when is 64.7% good? And he's only up about 5% from his season/career averages which is only 1 out of 20 so he hasn't really improved that much.

Relax. In the last few Orlando victories he was nailing free throws, he seems to have the typical big man "if-I -concentrate-real-hard-I-can-make-em" free throw attitude.

 

Its a damn shame everyone in the NBA isn't an automatic 80+% at free throws anyway

 

I wasn't mad or anything, just asking a question.

 

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Even Shaq had a few good games in a row and he never really improved.

 

In Shaq's last game at LSU he was perfect from the line. I believe he attempted at least 11 or 12 free throws in that game too. Reason I remember that is they were playing Indiana in the NCAA Sweet 16. IU won of course. \:D/

 

I believe it was 12 for 12 in route to 36 total points. It was a second round game, though, not Sweet Sixteen. Of course, Indiana won, on their way to the Final Four (and the eventual Ted Valentine personal vendetta game for which I'm still not over).

[Exile on Waveland]

Oh, and LeBron's first title is an inevitability. Not this year, maybe not even next year. But it will come. Then another, then another, etc.

[ConstableRabbit]

I'm pretty happy I don't have to watch Lebron's constant traveling and lack of a jump shot until next year's playoffs. On the other hand, I'm really looking forward to watching Kobe being Kobe and hitting consistent threes while being doubleteamed.

 

Lakers in 6.

[Flames24Rulz]

Oh, and LeBron's first title is an inevitability. Not this year, maybe not even next year. But it will come. Then another, then another, etc.

 

Of course, but I don't think it's going to happen in Cleveland now.

[ctcf]

I'm gonna be pulling for the Magic here, especially if Nelson makes a return.

[Guest]

Jordan NBA finals appearances his first six years: 0

LeBron NBA finals appearances his first six years: 1

...which is a ridiculous argument because if Jordan was in the west he would have been to multiple finals at this point.

Pretty much what I was going to post. Let's put LeBron in the late-80's to early-90's East, with Boston, Detroit and everybody else and let's see if he can even make it to the conference finals. If MJ was in the current East he'd be working on at least Finals No. 2 and probably more.

 

Because those Lakers teams were just complete pushovers and were annihilated in the finals every year that there's no way the Bulls would have lost to them.

The Bulls CRUSHED the Lakers in 1991 and were one MJ missed shot in OT away from a sweep. Is it so unbelievable to think they'd have either beaten them or avoided them through the West playoffs prior to that year?

 

Considering that the Bulls were much better that year than they had been the previous six and the core of the Lakers was getting older/retiring (Kareem was gone at that point, Magic was 31, Worthy 30), yes. I'd say that a bunch of the in their prime Lakers teams would have beaten the young Bulls teams of the mid 80's. The year before the Bulls won (when Detroit beat Portland in the finals), who knows. But I think you're grossly overrating those Bulls teams. They were under .500 in Jordan's first three years, the Lakers had the best record in the NBA and won the title in his fourth, then had the second best record in the league and best in the West in his fifth (the Bulls were the No. 6 team in the East at 47-35. Jordan's sixth year (the year before the Bulls won the title), maybe, but who knows.

 

You're looking at one year, maybe two with a stretch, out of the six that Jordan's Bulls team could have advanced out of the West.

[Magnetic Curses]

It's good to see that you're in complete denial about Jordan not being a killer in his first six years in the league.

 

and you're in denial, too. you don't understand that i'm agreeing with you. jordan was not a killer in his first 6 years and his siatuation is almost identical to lebron's with a few minor minor details.

[Guest]

It's good to see that you're in complete denial about Jordan not being a killer in his first six years in the league.

 

and you're in denial, too. you don't understand that i'm agreeing with you. jordan was not a killer in his first 6 years and his siatuation is almost identical to lebron's with a few minor minor details.

 

no, i'm agreeing with you. i think this nba title will be the first of many for lebron.

 

can't wait to see his ring!

 

and let me say that i am absolutely proud of lebron for suceeding when Jordan couldn't. you know, being the overwhelming favorite of analysts and fanboys alike going into the playoffs. jordan was terrible at that and lebron appears to be on the right track.

 

DOMINATION!

 

These statements say otherwise.

[cubweiser03]

A couple years ago wasnt the criticism of Kobe the same as some of the undercurrent criticism of Lebron. Kobe wants to be like Jordan too much and be the man, he scores too much, he wants to be the franchise and not the 2nd fiddle to Shaq, etc etc, Now what, dudes in the finals after averaging 'only' 26 in the reg and 29 in the playoffs. Kobe V Lebron would be great, too bad Bron is getting blown out at half.

 

And that LeBron's second best player on his team is Mo Williams lol.

Im not comparing this years teams to each other, im going back in time to what was being said about Kobe pre Gasol. There were a lot of similiarities of the criticism pre Gasol, hell Kobe wanted out of town BAD because he was too much of the team and didnt like the direction they were going in. Lebron needs a #2 i said that earlier in this thread.

 

MJ V Lebron....how bout post Shaq Kobe V Lebron. Kobe is 30 but he still has some good championship runs in him after this year.

[JonJayCutler]

I like Orlando's chances if they can take one of the first two in LA. Assuming they can do this, with the 2-3-2 format, all they would have to do is take two of three at home to have a 3-2 lead heading into game six. Then all they would have to do is once again take one of two in LA. Easier said than done though, I'm just not sure they match up well with them. But as long as Dwight can stay out of foul and technical foul trouble they should be able to take it six or seven games easy.

[Magnetic Curses]

It's good to see that you're in complete denial about Jordan not being a killer in his first six years in the league.

 

and you're in denial, too. you don't understand that i'm agreeing with you. jordan was not a killer in his first 6 years and his siatuation is almost identical to lebron's with a few minor minor details.

 

no, i'm agreeing with you. i think this nba title will be the first of many for lebron.

 

can't wait to see his ring!

 

and let me say that i am absolutely proud of lebron for suceeding when Jordan couldn't. you know, being the overwhelming favorite of analysts and fanboys alike going into the playoffs. jordan was terrible at that and lebron appears to be on the right track.

 

DOMINATION!

 

These statements say otherwise.

 

no, they don't.

[Guest]

I think one has to realize that MJ played in a different era. They played a much more physical defense in the 1980s and 1990s (Pistons, Knicks, etc.) and there's the whole hand check rule.

[Guest]

And I'd like Orlando's chances better if they had a real coach and not Ron Jeremy on the sidelines.

[SpongeWorthy]

SVG's a good coach.

[wolf stansson]

LeBron's going to have to take a very different path than Jordan if he wants to be put in that category. Pippen's value can't be overstated in terms of how much pressure he took off of Michael simply by being able to shut down any opposing team's best offensive player from the 1 to the 4. Having said that, today's NBA? Today's Orlando Magic? Really? That's who is taking you down? I really have a hard time believing the 90-91 Bulls that lost to the Pistons wouldn't have found a way to beat these Magic. Then again, I'm only judging those early Bulls team based on anecdote and stats. I'm just disappointed in LeBron yet thrilled as a Bulls homer.

 

I don't know. I'm honestly confused as to what, if anything, can be drawn from this latest ouster by LeBron. He's a victim of the ever foggier and thus growing legend of Airness and the media hype train's momentum which he has done nothing to slow and everything to encourage.

 

Hopefully what comes of this is a wake up call. First, he needs to decide now if he is a Cavalier or a short-timer. If he is staying, it is now his team. He needs to fire his coach, offload some of those players and start calling the shots. That's what Michael did. Soccer10k makes a point of how Jordan never did anything until Phil and Scottie came. Yeah? That's true, but who do you think brought those guys in? Jordan got Collins fired and got final approval on Phil's hiring. He liked the triangle offense and he liked Phil's attitude of deference towards his superstar.

 

When Scottie first came into the league, he was basically Tyrus Thomas. Zero polish. Just a granite rock of potential. Jordan did the same thing he did in the notorious bust up of Kwame Brown with the Wizards. He kept going at Scottie, never relenting. He pressured him and like coal into a diamond, Scottie responded and turned himself into a hall of fame complimentary player. Kwame couldn't take it.

 

The point of the Scottie/Phil/Jordan love fest is this: LeBron loves his teammates. He defers. He even said in a recent interview with Dan Patrick in SI that he'd rather dish it to a teammate and see them hit the game winning shot than take it and hit it himself. Regardless of whether that's true or not and he was just trying to come off as a nice guy, Jordan (and Kobe, Larry and other etc) would never, ever, ever say that. Jordan viewed his teammates as co workers. He respected them, but if they hurt his chances of winning, he would cut them out. He would never defer the big shot. He trusted only himself completely. And as for this clownish "Witness" bull [expletive]?

 

It's a disgrace. To see LeBron wearing 23, raises so many questions about this guy's ego and perspective. To see him clowning on Jordan's pregame ritual and take it to such an extreme is a joke. To see him do it in opposing stadiums? Pfft. Unacceptable.

 

Anyway, apologies to Sulley who was right all along, with a caveat. I'm not ready to write off LeBron's transcendence quite yet. I just know he's never going to be Jordan. He may do it from his purely physical superiority, but not with the same mental strength. People talk about how LeBron, Wade and Carmelo learned so much from watching Kobe's work habits during the Olympics. That concept would be laughable to Jordan. He didn't have to learn that from some other player. Either did Kobe for that matter. They are driven by the same thing that makes them almost reprehensible human beings. The insane desire that no man ever get over on you because they worked harder.

 

Either way, the "WITNESS," powder clapping and and pregame intro clowning will need to stop if he wants to ever get the kind of respect MJ gets/got.

[Magnetic Curses]

LeBron's going to have to take a very different path than Jordan if he wants to be put in that category. Pippen's value can't be overstated in terms of how much pressure he took off of Michael simply by being able to shut down any opposing team's best offensive player from the 1 to the 4. Having said that, today's NBA? Today's Orlando Magic? Really? That's who is taking you down? I really have a hard time believing the 90-91 Bulls that lost to the Pistons wouldn't have found a way to beat these Magic. Then again, I'm only judging those early Bulls team based on anecdote and stats. I'm just disappointed in LeBron yet thrilled as a Bulls homer.

 

I don't know. I'm honestly confused as to what, if anything, can be drawn from this latest ouster by LeBron. He's a victim of the ever foggier and thus growing legend of Airness and the media hype train's momentum which he has done nothing to slow and everything to encourage.

 

Hopefully what comes of this is a wake up call. First, he needs to decide now if he is a Cavalier or a short-timer. If he is staying, it is now his team. He needs to fire his coach, offload some of those players and start calling the shots. That's what Michael did. Soccer10k makes a point of how Jordan never did anything until Phil and Scottie came. Yeah? That's true, but who do you think brought those guys in? Jordan got Collins fired and got final approval on Phil's hiring. He liked the triangle offense and he liked Phil's attitude of deference towards his superstar.

 

When Scottie first came into the league, he was basically Tyrus Thomas. Zero polish. Just a granite rock of potential. Jordan did the same thing he did in the notorious bust up of Kwame Brown with the Wizards. He kept going at Scottie, never relenting. He pressured him and like coal into a diamond, Scottie responded and turned himself into a hall of fame complimentary player. Kwame couldn't take it.

 

The point of the Scottie/Phil/Jordan love fest is this: LeBron loves his teammates. He defers. He even said in a recent interview with Dan Patrick in SI that he'd rather dish it to a teammate and see them hit the game winning shot than take it and hit it himself. Regardless of whether that's true or not and he was just trying to come off as a nice guy, Jordan (and Kobe, Larry and other etc) would never, ever, ever say that. Jordan viewed his teammates as co workers. He respected them, but if they hurt his chances of winning, he would cut them out. He would never defer the big shot. He trusted only himself completely. And as for this clownish "Witness" bull [expletive]?

 

It's a disgrace. To see LeBron wearing 23, raises so many questions about this guy's ego and perspective. To see him clowning on Jordan's pregame ritual and take it to such an extreme is a joke. To see him do it in opposing stadiums? Pfft. Unacceptable.

 

Anyway, apologies to Sulley who was right all along, with a caveat. I'm not ready to write off LeBron's transcendence quite yet. I just know he's never going to be Jordan. He may do it from his purely physical superiority, but not with the same mental strength. People talk about how LeBron, Wade and Carmelo learned so much from watching Kobe's work habits during the Olympics. That concept would be laughable to Jordan. He didn't have to learn that from some other player. Either did Kobe for that matter. They are driven by the same thing that makes them almost reprehensible human beings. The insane desire that no man ever get over on you because they worked harder.

 

Either way, the "WITNESS," powder clapping and and pregame intro clowning will need to stop if he wants to ever get the kind of respect MJ gets/got.

 

great post.

 

i really didn't start to doubt lebron until i saw him disappear at the olympics. i was embarassed that our so-called "best player of all-time" took a big bloody dump all over the floor at beijing.

 

no one will ever have the drive of jordan, kobe comes the closest but kobe still has an aspect of his game where he settles for terrible shots simply because he allowed to take them, though he's a much better outside shooter than MJ ever was. lebron has already shown that he doesn't have it. sure, he's frustrated and acted like a total punk after he got beat, but that doesn't mean he's very competitive, just means he's a baby. jordan, the few times he did get beat, sucked it up and acted like man, at least to the public and knew that if someone beat him, they outplayed him that night.

[ConstableRabbit]

LeBron's going to have to take a very different path than Jordan if he wants to be put in that category. Pippen's value can't be overstated in terms of how much pressure he took off of Michael simply by being able to shut down any opposing team's best offensive player from the 1 to the 4. Having said that, today's NBA? Today's Orlando Magic? Really? That's who is taking you down? I really have a hard time believing the 90-91 Bulls that lost to the Pistons wouldn't have found a way to beat these Magic. Then again, I'm only judging those early Bulls team based on anecdote and stats. I'm just disappointed in LeBron yet thrilled as a Bulls homer.

 

I don't know. I'm honestly confused as to what, if anything, can be drawn from this latest ouster by LeBron. He's a victim of the ever foggier and thus growing legend of Airness and the media hype train's momentum which he has done nothing to slow and everything to encourage.

 

Hopefully what comes of this is a wake up call. First, he needs to decide now if he is a Cavalier or a short-timer. If he is staying, it is now his team. He needs to fire his coach, offload some of those players and start calling the shots. That's what Michael did. Soccer10k makes a point of how Jordan never did anything until Phil and Scottie came. Yeah? That's true, but who do you think brought those guys in? Jordan got Collins fired and got final approval on Phil's hiring. He liked the triangle offense and he liked Phil's attitude of deference towards his superstar.

 

When Scottie first came into the league, he was basically Tyrus Thomas. Zero polish. Just a granite rock of potential. Jordan did the same thing he did in the notorious bust up of Kwame Brown with the Wizards. He kept going at Scottie, never relenting. He pressured him and like coal into a diamond, Scottie responded and turned himself into a hall of fame complimentary player. Kwame couldn't take it.

 

The point of the Scottie/Phil/Jordan love fest is this: LeBron loves his teammates. He defers. He even said in a recent interview with Dan Patrick in SI that he'd rather dish it to a teammate and see them hit the game winning shot than take it and hit it himself. Regardless of whether that's true or not and he was just trying to come off as a nice guy, Jordan (and Kobe, Larry and other etc) would never, ever, ever say that. Jordan viewed his teammates as co workers. He respected them, but if they hurt his chances of winning, he would cut them out. He would never defer the big shot. He trusted only himself completely. And as for this clownish "Witness" bull [expletive]?

 

It's a disgrace. To see LeBron wearing 23, raises so many questions about this guy's ego and perspective. To see him clowning on Jordan's pregame ritual and take it to such an extreme is a joke. To see him do it in opposing stadiums? Pfft. Unacceptable.

 

Anyway, apologies to Sulley who was right all along, with a caveat. I'm not ready to write off LeBron's transcendence quite yet. I just know he's never going to be Jordan. He may do it from his purely physical superiority, but not with the same mental strength. People talk about how LeBron, Wade and Carmelo learned so much from watching Kobe's work habits during the Olympics. That concept would be laughable to Jordan. He didn't have to learn that from some other player. Either did Kobe for that matter. They are driven by the same thing that makes them almost reprehensible human beings. The insane desire that no man ever get over on you because they worked harder.

 

Either way, the "WITNESS," powder clapping and and pregame intro clowning will need to stop if he wants to ever get the kind of respect MJ gets/got.

=D>

[apete6]

LeBron's going to have to take a very different path than Jordan if he wants to be put in that category. Pippen's value can't be overstated in terms of how much pressure he took off of Michael simply by being able to shut down any opposing team's best offensive player from the 1 to the 4. Having said that, today's NBA? Today's Orlando Magic? Really? That's who is taking you down? I really have a hard time believing the 90-91 Bulls that lost to the Pistons wouldn't have found a way to beat these Magic. Then again, I'm only judging those early Bulls team based on anecdote and stats. I'm just disappointed in LeBron yet thrilled as a Bulls homer.

 

I don't know. I'm honestly confused as to what, if anything, can be drawn from this latest ouster by LeBron. He's a victim of the ever foggier and thus growing legend of Airness and the media hype train's momentum which he has done nothing to slow and everything to encourage.

 

Hopefully what comes of this is a wake up call. First, he needs to decide now if he is a Cavalier or a short-timer. If he is staying, it is now his team. He needs to fire his coach, offload some of those players and start calling the shots. That's what Michael did. Soccer10k makes a point of how Jordan never did anything until Phil and Scottie came. Yeah? That's true, but who do you think brought those guys in? Jordan got Collins fired and got final approval on Phil's hiring. He liked the triangle offense and he liked Phil's attitude of deference towards his superstar.

 

When Scottie first came into the league, he was basically Tyrus Thomas. Zero polish. Just a granite rock of potential. Jordan did the same thing he did in the notorious bust up of Kwame Brown with the Wizards. He kept going at Scottie, never relenting. He pressured him and like coal into a diamond, Scottie responded and turned himself into a hall of fame complimentary player. Kwame couldn't take it.

 

The point of the Scottie/Phil/Jordan love fest is this: LeBron loves his teammates. He defers. He even said in a recent interview with Dan Patrick in SI that he'd rather dish it to a teammate and see them hit the game winning shot than take it and hit it himself. Regardless of whether that's true or not and he was just trying to come off as a nice guy, Jordan (and Kobe, Larry and other etc) would never, ever, ever say that. Jordan viewed his teammates as co workers. He respected them, but if they hurt his chances of winning, he would cut them out. He would never defer the big shot. He trusted only himself completely. And as for this clownish "Witness" bull [expletive]?

 

It's a disgrace. To see LeBron wearing 23, raises so many questions about this guy's ego and perspective. To see him clowning on Jordan's pregame ritual and take it to such an extreme is a joke. To see him do it in opposing stadiums? Pfft. Unacceptable.

 

Anyway, apologies to Sulley who was right all along, with a caveat. I'm not ready to write off LeBron's transcendence quite yet. I just know he's never going to be Jordan. He may do it from his purely physical superiority, but not with the same mental strength. People talk about how LeBron, Wade and Carmelo learned so much from watching Kobe's work habits during the Olympics. That concept would be laughable to Jordan. He didn't have to learn that from some other player. Either did Kobe for that matter. They are driven by the same thing that makes them almost reprehensible human beings. The insane desire that no man ever get over on you because they worked harder.

 

Either way, the "WITNESS," powder clapping and and pregame intro clowning will need to stop if he wants to ever get the kind of respect MJ gets/got.

 

great post.

 

i really didn't start to doubt lebron until i saw him disappear at the olympics. i was embarassed that our so-called "best player of all-time" took a big bloody dump all over the floor at beijing.

 

no one will ever have the drive of jordan, kobe comes the closest but kobe still has an aspect of his game where he settles for terrible shots simply because he allowed to take them, though he's a much better outside shooter than MJ ever was. lebron has already shown that he doesn't have it. sure, he's frustrated and acted like a total punk after he got beat, but that doesn't mean he's very competitive, just means he's a baby. jordan, the few times he did get beat, sucked it up and acted like man, at least to the public and knew that if someone beat him, they outplayed him that night.

 

Agreed on all counts from both of you. Great analysis. =D>

[ELCABALLO45]

LeBron didnt win a championship this year with Mo Williams/Delonte West/Z as his best other options.

 

He will either.. go to a team that will give him a solid number 2 option OR the Cavs will get him a decent number 2 option. And then he will win a Championship and another one etc....

[Magnetic Curses]

LeBron didnt win a championship this year with Mo Williams/Delonte West/Z as his best other options.

 

He will either.. go to a team that will give him a solid number 2 option OR the Cavs will get him a decent number 2 option. And then he will win a Championship and another one etc....

 

but the thing is, lebron needs a #1 option. he and jordan might have won a few titles in their day. although pippen may have been the best defensive player of all time and that team was a true 2-way demon-brood that locked you down and then ran over your face. yeah, scottie was probably a better fit.

[BigSlick]

Whether or not Lebron stays i think depends entirely on how they do next year. If he's happy with the progress they're making (especially if they win the championship) he'll stay. If he were a free agent at this exact moment, I'd wager that he stays as well.

 

If they make another early exit in the East next year, theres a chance he'd leave. But would he really want to go the mess that is New York?

[Mark_R]

Whether or not Lebron stays i think depends entirely on how they do next year. If he's happy with the progress they're making (especially if they win the championship) he'll stay. If he were a free agent at this exact moment, I'd wager that he stays as well.

 

If they make another early exit in the East next year, theres a chance he'd leave. But would he really want to go the mess that is New York?

 

I say yes. He wants to be the biggest superstar on the planet. Just imagine what it could do for his legacy if he was able to turn around that decrepit franchise. Its all about ego.

[BigSlick]

Whether or not Lebron stays i think depends entirely on how they do next year. If he's happy with the progress they're making (especially if they win the championship) he'll stay. If he were a free agent at this exact moment, I'd wager that he stays as well.

 

If they make another early exit in the East next year, theres a chance he'd leave. But would he really want to go the mess that is New York?

 

I say yes. He wants to be the biggest superstar on the planet. Just imagine what it could do for his legacy if he was able to turn around that decrepit franchise. Its all about ego.

Its hard to see exactly what his real drive is. Some people think he comes across an egomaniac, some think he comes across as pretty humble. I think he's somewhere in the middle.

 

I've read he pretty much still hangs around Akron with his old friends, his mom and his GF and kids. Yeah, he does a lot of commercials and gets a lot of exposure, but I dunno if he actually really wants to leave. He has a nice set up in Cleveland, and is basically king of Ohio. (Ohio sucks and I'm from there so take it with a grain of salt)