Jake Fox

[Guest]

Im pretty sure if we check the AAA rosters around the league, wed find a lot of power hitters in their late 20's who will probably never be full time major leaguers, many because of their defense, some because they havnt tranlated their success in their chances in the majors, or they simply havnt been given enough of a chance in the majors to prove themselves. Fox falls in all 3 catagories.

 

 

I am not trying to make a case for him to start, Im just saying his bat should belong in the Majors. Maybe he sucks like everyone says he does.

 

He probably does have a major league bat. There are a lot of guys who have come before him that also had major league bats, but just never got the chance to prove it. And for the miriad of reasons that West Side Rooter mentioned above, it sucks for Jake, but lacking the ability to play any one position well enough is why a whole lot of guys don't ever get an opportunity to even sniff the big leagues.

 

Jake probably only originally got drafted because of the position he played, which was catcher. Unfortunately, he didn't have major league talent in receiving skills, which basically derailed his career, not his bat.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Im pretty sure if we check the AAA rosters around the league, wed find a lot of power hitters in their late 20's who will probably never be full time major leaguers, many because of their defense, some because they havnt tranlated their success in their chances in the majors, or they simply havnt been given enough of a chance in the majors to prove themselves. Fox falls in all 3 catagories.

 

 

I am not trying to make a case for him to start, Im just saying his bat should belong in the Majors. Maybe he sucks like everyone says he does.

 

 

As I said earlier, its not that he sucks, its about the organization. Career minor league power hitters are a dime a dozen. For some guys, like Jack Cust, and hopefully Micah Hoffpauir it can translate into a shot at the big show. For some guys, it just wont. Look at Scott McClain. The guys pusing 40, and has been putting up nice AAA numbers for years, with a career .271/.357/.484. When he gets the the majors, it doesnt translate, as shown by his MLB .192/.284/.295 line in 78 career at bats. With some of these guys, its just a catch 22. While if the were given enough of a chance to produce, maybe they would, but if they dont produce quickly enough after getting the majors, they will never get the opportunity to prove themselves long term.

[Guest]

Probably a good comparison to Fox would be David Kelton.

 

Once Kelton proved he could never be a major league 3b, his future didn't look so bright.

[Little Slide Rooter]

On a side note, any one have any idea how much veteran AAA players make? Is it any better than your average 9-5? I bet Raisin knows that answer to that.

[Soul]

Im pretty sure if we check the AAA rosters around the league, wed find a lot of power hitters in their late 20's who will probably never be full time major leaguers, many because of their defense, some because they havnt tranlated their success in their chances in the majors, or they simply havnt been given enough of a chance in the majors to prove themselves. Fox falls in all 3 catagories.

 

 

I am not trying to make a case for him to start, Im just saying his bat should belong in the Majors. Maybe he sucks like everyone says he does.

 

 

As I said earlier, its not that he sucks, its about the organization. Career minor league power hitters are a dime a dozen. For some guys, like Jack Cust, and hopefully Micah Hoffpauir it can translate into a shot at the big show. For some guys, it just wont. Look at Scott McClain. The guys pusing 40, and has been putting up nice AAA numbers for years, with a career .271/.357/.484. When he gets the the majors, it doesnt translate, as shown by his MLB .192/.284/.295 line in 78 career at bats. With some of these guys, its just a catch 22. While if the were given enough of a chance to produce, maybe they would, but if they dont produce quickly enough after getting the majors, they will never get the opportunity to prove themselves long term.

 

Kind of sucks because you see the AAA numbers and you go "yeah I want that on the big club!!" But then it doesn't happen at the next level. Seen it too many times :(

 

I hope Hoff can break through.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

On a side note, any one have any idea how much veteran AAA players make? Is it any better than your average 9-5? I bet Raisin knows that answer to that.

 

If they're on a 40 man roster, it's a bit over 50k. Otherwise, it's not much unless you have a signing bonus to fall back on. Looks like AAA players make about 25k per season, closer to 20k if they only count the months that they're actually playing ball. Remember though, players are fed and partially housed for a good portion of the season.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

As others have pointed out, there are a lot of guys like Fox who hit minor league pitching but lack a defensive position. If Fox played on a team that was in need of a first baseman, he would likely get more of a look. Sometimes guys get a shot to show they can hit at the big leagues, and if they do, it opens enough eyes for teams to carry them as a pinch hitter or even consider them as a starter.

 

Hoffpauir came up last year due to an injury, and in his limited at bats proved that he belonged. If he can continue to produce like that, he'll be a guy that teams will feel confident using a bench spot on. If he can do it for another year or two, he may convince teams to think of him like a Darryle Ward and carve out a nice major league career.

 

Fox had an opportunity as well. He received a call-up in 2007. True, he only got 14 AB over seven games, but he put up a paltry 143/200/286 line. Yes, we can argue sample size and whatnot, but to some, he had an opportunity and didn't prove much of anything. If he played catcher or was able to adequately play a number of defensive positions, then a second chance might come his way. My guess is it won't. I think Jake probably would adjust to major league pitching, but he isn't unseating Derrek Lee anytime soon at first, so if Jake is going to adjust, he'll have to prove he can hit in a short stint and in sporadic playing time. Combined with the fact that Jake offers little to no flexibility in his ability to play in the field and his poor showing when he got an opportunity (no matter how fair that opportunity may have been) has Fox as one of those players that the Cubs likely do not view as a viable bench option and other teams share that opinion as well.

 

I think Sam Fuld would get a call before Jake, and I don't expect to see Sam in Wrigley any time soon either.

[Backtobanks]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem with that bench is that it's basically a bench of

 

That has two players, one right-handed the other left handed that are identical in Fox and Hoffpauir. Both can be put in the of, but bad defensively there. Fox might give you an option at third, and as much as I hate to quote Dusty, his "the ball will find you" quote probably would apply here. Fox might make the plays there, but it's likely he'd give up just as many as he could bring in. The only middle infielder in that group is Miles, and trusting him to back up short is risky at best. Johnson becomes the only bench outfielder with any defensive prowess at all.

 

Let's look at it this way...if Aramis needs a day off, I don't think the Cubs would be comfortable with Fox starting at third. Miles would be there which means there would be no middle infielder on the bench those days.

 

I can't see a team carrying two players that profile like Hoffpauir and Fox do.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I think another reason that a lot of these guys struggle when they come to the majors in their limited sample suize is that when you take a guy whose played his entire career as an everyday starter, and then put him on the bench as a pinch hitter, they feel rusty and have trouble adjusting. I know that they sometimes go to the clubhouse to do some woking out, but its not nearly the same as in game action.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem with that bench is that it's basically a bench of

 

That has two players, one right-handed the other left handed that are identical in Fox and Hoffpauir. Both can be put in the of, but bad defensively there. Fox might give you an option at third, and as much as I hate to quote Dusty, his "the ball will find you" quote probably would apply here. Fox might make the plays there, but it's likely he'd give up just as many as he could bring in. The only middle infielder in that group is Miles, and trusting him to back up short is risky at best. Johnson becomes the only bench outfielder with any defensive prowess at all.

 

Let's look at it this way...if Aramis needs a day off, I don't think the Cubs would be comfortable with Fox starting at third. Miles would be there which means there would be no middle infielder on the bench those days.

 

I can't see a team carrying two players that profile like Hoffpauir and Fox do.

 

To sum it up, a basic bench should have a righty oufielder, a lefty outfielder, a corner infielder, a middle infielder, and a back up catcher.

 

RH Outfielder-Reed Johnson

Catcher-Bako/Hill

Middle infield-Miles

1B-Hoff

This leaves one more outfield position. That likely goes to gathright, as he is lefty, can play a semi competant oufield, as far as I know anyway, and he beings some great speed to the bench.

 

The thing about spring training is that there are very few jobs up for grabs, especially with a team liek the Cubs. Maybe a bullpen spot or 2, and maybe 1 bench spot. When you pick up a free agent, usually, the assumtion is that that guy will be on the opening day rotster, unless they have an awful spring training. This leaves a bunch of other guys like Hoff, Fox, and Snyder playing their hearts out for that 1 remaining spot, and the others will go back to Iowa until someone goes down with injury.

[jmajew]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem with that bench is that it's basically a bench of

 

That has two players, one right-handed the other left handed that are identical in Fox and Hoffpauir. Both can be put in the of, but bad defensively there. Fox might give you an option at third, and as much as I hate to quote Dusty, his "the ball will find you" quote probably would apply here. Fox might make the plays there, but it's likely he'd give up just as many as he could bring in. The only middle infielder in that group is Miles, and trusting him to back up short is risky at best. Johnson becomes the only bench outfielder with any defensive prowess at all.

 

Let's look at it this way...if Aramis needs a day off, I don't think the Cubs would be comfortable with Fox starting at third. Miles would be there which means there would be no middle infielder on the bench those days.

 

I can't see a team carrying two players that profile like Hoffpauir and Fox do.

 

To sum it up, a basic bench should have a righty oufielder, a lefty outfielder, a corner infielder, a middle infielder, and a back up catcher.

 

RH Outfielder-Reed Johnson

Catcher-Bako/Hill

Middle infield-Miles

1B-Hoff

This leaves one more outfield position. That likely goes to gathright, as he is lefty, can play a semi competant oufield, as far as I know anyway, and he beings some great speed to the bench.

 

The thing about spring training is that there are very few jobs up for grabs, especially with a team liek the Cubs. Maybe a bullpen spot or 2, and maybe 1 bench spot. When you pick up a free agent, usually, the assumtion is that that guy will be on the opening day rotster, unless they have an awful spring training. This leaves a bunch of other guys like Hoff, Fox, and Snyder playing their hearts out for that 1 remaining spot, and the others will go back to Iowa until someone goes down with injury.

 

We are giong to keep 12 pitchers to break camp? I would think with a bullpen of Gregg, Marmol, Heilman, Samardizja, Cotts, (not sure who 6th would be) would be flexible enough to allow us to keep 6 bench players instead of 5.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem with that bench is that it's basically a bench of

 

That has two players, one right-handed the other left handed that are identical in Fox and Hoffpauir. Both can be put in the of, but bad defensively there. Fox might give you an option at third, and as much as I hate to quote Dusty, his "the ball will find you" quote probably would apply here. Fox might make the plays there, but it's likely he'd give up just as many as he could bring in. The only middle infielder in that group is Miles, and trusting him to back up short is risky at best. Johnson becomes the only bench outfielder with any defensive prowess at all.

 

Let's look at it this way...if Aramis needs a day off, I don't think the Cubs would be comfortable with Fox starting at third. Miles would be there which means there would be no middle infielder on the bench those days.

 

I can't see a team carrying two players that profile like Hoffpauir and Fox do.

 

To sum it up, a basic bench should have a righty oufielder, a lefty outfielder, a corner infielder, a middle infielder, and a back up catcher.

 

RH Outfielder-Reed Johnson

Catcher-Bako/Hill

Middle infield-Miles

1B-Hoff

This leaves one more outfield position. That likely goes to gathright, as he is lefty, can play a semi competant oufield, as far as I know anyway, and he beings some great speed to the bench.

 

The thing about spring training is that there are very few jobs up for grabs, especially with a team liek the Cubs. Maybe a bullpen spot or 2, and maybe 1 bench spot. When you pick up a free agent, usually, the assumtion is that that guy will be on the opening day rotster, unless they have an awful spring training. This leaves a bunch of other guys like Hoff, Fox, and Snyder playing their hearts out for that 1 remaining spot, and the others will go back to Iowa until someone goes down with injury.

 

We are giong to keep 12 pitchers to break camp? I would think with a bullpen of Gregg, Marmol, Heilman, Samardizja, Cotts, (not sure who 6th would be) would be flexible enough to allow us to keep 6 bench players instead of 5.

 

True as that may be, Lou has already said he wants to start off with 12 pitchers, with the starting 5, plus a pen of presumably Marmol, Heilman, Gregg, Cotts, and 3 of Gaudin/Guzman/Patton/Vizcaino, with Shark starting in Iowa.

[CubColtPacer]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem with that bench is that it's basically a bench of

 

That has two players, one right-handed the other left handed that are identical in Fox and Hoffpauir. Both can be put in the of, but bad defensively there. Fox might give you an option at third, and as much as I hate to quote Dusty, his "the ball will find you" quote probably would apply here. Fox might make the plays there, but it's likely he'd give up just as many as he could bring in. The only middle infielder in that group is Miles, and trusting him to back up short is risky at best. Johnson becomes the only bench outfielder with any defensive prowess at all.

 

Let's look at it this way...if Aramis needs a day off, I don't think the Cubs would be comfortable with Fox starting at third. Miles would be there which means there would be no middle infielder on the bench those days.

 

I can't see a team carrying two players that profile like Hoffpauir and Fox do.

 

To sum it up, a basic bench should have a righty oufielder, a lefty outfielder, a corner infielder, a middle infielder, and a back up catcher.

 

RH Outfielder-Reed Johnson

Catcher-Bako/Hill

Middle infield-Miles

1B-Hoff

This leaves one more outfield position. That likely goes to gathright, as he is lefty, can play a semi competant oufield, as far as I know anyway, and he beings some great speed to the bench.

 

The thing about spring training is that there are very few jobs up for grabs, especially with a team liek the Cubs. Maybe a bullpen spot or 2, and maybe 1 bench spot. When you pick up a free agent, usually, the assumtion is that that guy will be on the opening day rotster, unless they have an awful spring training. This leaves a bunch of other guys like Hoff, Fox, and Snyder playing their hearts out for that 1 remaining spot, and the others will go back to Iowa until someone goes down with injury.

 

We are giong to keep 12 pitchers to break camp? I would think with a bullpen of Gregg, Marmol, Heilman, Samardizja, Cotts, (not sure who 6th would be) would be flexible enough to allow us to keep 6 bench players instead of 5.

 

We are going with 12 pitchers along with the rest of MLB. The days of 6 bench players are unfortunately dying rather quickly. Last year there was exactly 1 team that dared to use 11 by mid-season. I feel too that those 6 could handle the bullpen just fine, but managers these days are more likely to want 13 pitchers at times than 11.

 

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats. If he had a position and was a necessary component of the bench, maybe the club would be more inclined to give him another chance. As it was, they didn't even invite him to come be a pinch-hitter last September when there were no roster restrictions and gave those at-bats to Casey McGehee instead.

 

Fox could potentially do well in the major leagues, but he has at least two strikes against him in the Cubs organization and possibly three. I can only see the Cubs turning to him if they get really desperate for hitting and have multiple injuries.

[jersey cubs fan]

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats.

 

Swinging early in a couple at bats hardly qualifies as openly defying your manager by refusing to be patient. Patience can only be measured over time, 5 pitches in 3 at-bats is something that happens to everybody.

[CubColtPacer]

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats.

 

Swinging early in a couple at bats hardly qualifies as openly defying your manager by refusing to be patient. Patience can only be measured over time, 5 pitches in 3 at-bats is something that happens to everybody.

 

Maybe Lou overreacted to it. I'm not sure as I don't know exactly what was said. But I'm pretty sure a story at the time was that after Fox had swung at the first 3 pitches he saw and made 2 outs that by the 3rd at-bat Lou had him taking until he got a strike and Fox swung at the first strike he saw. Lou immediately pulled him from the game and then the Cubs announced they were going to ship him out before the next game.

 

Fox wasn't going to get many opportunities. He had to implement Lou's suggestion immediately, and instead he went and did the exact opposite. Obviously the Cubs felt strongly about it as they have completely barred him since then when it didn't make sense to not bring him up. Their dislike for him might be getting a little bit less now though with the recent quotes from Piniella that he is getting closer to being a major league ballplayer.

[jersey cubs fan]

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats.

 

Swinging early in a couple at bats hardly qualifies as openly defying your manager by refusing to be patient. Patience can only be measured over time, 5 pitches in 3 at-bats is something that happens to everybody.

 

Maybe Lou overreacted to it. I'm not sure as I don't know exactly what was said. But I'm pretty sure a story at the time was that after Fox had swung at the first 3 pitches he saw and made 2 outs that by the 3rd at-bat Lou had him taking until he got a strike and Fox swung at the first strike he saw. Lou immediately pulled him from the game and then the Cubs announced they were going to ship him out before the next game.

 

Fox wasn't going to get many opportunities. He had to implement Lou's suggestion immediately, and instead he went and did the exact opposite. Obviously the Cubs felt strongly about it as they have completely barred him since then when it didn't make sense to not bring him up. Their dislike for him might be getting a little bit less now though with the recent quotes from Piniella that he is getting closer to being a major league ballplayer.

 

There's a perfectly good reason not to callup/use a guy who is essentially a potential DH. This team stresses defensive flexibility above everything else when it comes to their role players. He has no chance of being a Cub.

[Guest]

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats.

 

Swinging early in a couple at bats hardly qualifies as openly defying your manager by refusing to be patient. Patience can only be measured over time, 5 pitches in 3 at-bats is something that happens to everybody.

 

Maybe Lou overreacted to it. I'm not sure as I don't know exactly what was said. But I'm pretty sure a story at the time was that after Fox had swung at the first 3 pitches he saw and made 2 outs that by the 3rd at-bat Lou had him taking until he got a strike and Fox swung at the first strike he saw. Lou immediately pulled him from the game and then the Cubs announced they were going to ship him out before the next game.

 

Fox wasn't going to get many opportunities. He had to implement Lou's suggestion immediately, and instead he went and did the exact opposite. Obviously the Cubs felt strongly about it as they have completely barred him since then when it didn't make sense to not bring him up. Their dislike for him might be getting a little bit less now though with the recent quotes from Piniella that he is getting closer to being a major league ballplayer.

Fox in 2007 in AA: 359 AB, 17 BB

Fox in 2008 in AA: 388 AB, 46 BB

 

Lou made his point - to an extent.

 

Fox in spring training: 60 AB, 3 BB

 

Personally, one of my favorite things about Lou is his emphasis on hitters being selective in their approach. Using Fox as an example for the organization probably caught the attention of other guys in the system, too.

[CubColtPacer]

As far as Fox, not only did he not do well in his limited time here, but he also openly defied Lou by refusing to be more patient. He was shipped quickly out after his last game here where he saw 5 combined pitches in 3 at-bats.

 

Swinging early in a couple at bats hardly qualifies as openly defying your manager by refusing to be patient. Patience can only be measured over time, 5 pitches in 3 at-bats is something that happens to everybody.

 

Maybe Lou overreacted to it. I'm not sure as I don't know exactly what was said. But I'm pretty sure a story at the time was that after Fox had swung at the first 3 pitches he saw and made 2 outs that by the 3rd at-bat Lou had him taking until he got a strike and Fox swung at the first strike he saw. Lou immediately pulled him from the game and then the Cubs announced they were going to ship him out before the next game.

 

Fox wasn't going to get many opportunities. He had to implement Lou's suggestion immediately, and instead he went and did the exact opposite. Obviously the Cubs felt strongly about it as they have completely barred him since then when it didn't make sense to not bring him up. Their dislike for him might be getting a little bit less now though with the recent quotes from Piniella that he is getting closer to being a major league ballplayer.

 

There's a perfectly good reason not to callup/use a guy who is essentially a potential DH. This team stresses defensive flexibility above everything else when it comes to their role players. He has no chance of being a Cub.

 

Oh, I completely understand the reasons for most of the year to not bring Fox up. I was talking more about the two Septembers the team has had since then. The Cubs have had a weakness having pinch-hitters who can hit left-handed pitching in the late innings. They had to turn to Blanco several times last year because they had ran out of those pinch-hitters. It would have made sense to bring up Fox both of those years in September when his defense wouldn't matter and pinch-hit him in those opportunities. It would have cost the Cubs very little to at least have him available to do that, but they passed both years.

 

Tim does bring up an interesting point though. Fox was an expendable player at the time and was probably a good tool to show the entire organization that the philosophy needed to keep changing to be more selective.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem is he can't be decent defensively anywhere. He just can't.

[Soul]

I understand all of the "player without a position" argument, but if he could just be decent defensively at 3B/1B, his bat would be a welcome addition to the bench. Hoff, Fox, Johnson, Miles, and Bako/Hill would be a decent bench assuming Fox could produce at the ML level.

 

The problem is he can't be decent defensively anywhere. He just can't.

 

Just ain't got it in him. Sometimes people take defense for granted. But some of these guys really struggle with the glove.

[THISisTHEyear09]

If the Cubs can't use him in any way, they dont want to bring him up in sept., and Lou hates him along probally with others Why not release the guy because he pratically doing nothing for the Cubs because they wont give him a shot( and i know 10 guys will say they gave him a shot in 07 with 17 abs). I cant belive a team like the royals or mariners dont have room for a guy that can hit the ball

[17 Seconds]

i think you are jake fox

[THISisTHEyear09]

Good one

[THISisTHEyear09]

Im wont say anthing more on the subject, should've never brought it up