Lou: Fukudome Penciled in at 2-Spot in Linuep

[CubColtPacer]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

Yes, stats about performance in all situations, including when a runner is on first, can't possibly be used to predict how one can do if a runner is on first. That would be just asinine.

what are you talking about?

 

if you were actually following the discussion, you would see that the topic was theriot's ability to move runners over. when you show me data that includes his at bats with the bases empty, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

If a guy hits a lot of grounders to the left side, chances are he's going to hit a lot of grounders to the left side even when there's a runner on 1st.

that's not true at all. professional baseball players have the ability to hit the ball to the right side if they want to, theriot seems especially good at this.

 

your dunn versus theriot comparisons are meaningless too so i'm not even going to address that.

 

But if your swing is not naturally tailored towards it then you are sacrificing a lot of your ability to get a basehit just to hit a ball to the right side.

 

Kosuke hits a lot of ground balls to the right side naturally. So he actually becomes a better person to hit runners over because he can do that while striving for a base hit at the same time.

 

And a minor nitpick: Kosuke's SLG was .2 better, not .02.

[Andy]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

Yes, stats about performance in all situations, including when a runner is on first, can't possibly be used to predict how one can do if a runner is on first. That would be just asinine.

what are you talking about?

 

if you were actually following the discussion, you would see that the topic was theriot's ability to move runners over. when you show me data that includes his at bats with the bases empty, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

If a guy hits a lot of grounders to the left side, chances are he's going to hit a lot of grounders to the left side even when there's a runner on 1st.

that's not true at all. professional baseball players have the ability to hit the ball to the right side if they want to, theriot seems especially good at this.

 

your dunn versus theriot comparisons are meaningless too so i'm not even going to address that.

So good at it that he hit into 19 double plays? And my comparison isn't meaningless just because you say it is.

[cubbinalltheway]

So good at it that he hit into 19 double plays? And my comparison isn't meaningless just because you say it is.

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

Kosuke hits a lot of ground balls to the right side naturally. So he actually becomes a better person to hit runners over because he can do that while striving for a base hit at the same time.

 

And a minor nitpick: Kosuke's SLG was .2 better, not .02.

.379 vs .359 is .02.

 

your point about hitting to the right side naturally is valid though. i'm just not ready to essentially demote a guy after a solid year, in hopes that fukudome won't suck so badly like he did in '08.

[biittner77]

Pretending for a second that moving runners over is important, who has a better chance of executing a sac bunt, Theriot or Fukudome? Who has a better chance of advancing a runner with a groundout, a RH hitter (Theriot) or a LH hitter (Fukudome)?

 

The answer in both cases is Fukudome.

 

Against LH pitchers you could make the argument for Theriot over Miles or Johnson.

[Guest]

.379 vs .359 is .02.

 

your point about hitting to the right side naturally is valid though. i'm just not ready to essentially demote a guy after a solid year, in hopes that fukudome won't suck so badly like he did in '08.

 

While it's great to make .02 look like an insignificant difference in SLG between two players, Theriot had 24 XBH's in 661 PA's. Fukudome had 38 XBH's in 590 PA's.

 

Theriot isn't being demoted. He's being placed in the line up where his type of production is best suited. Especially when you basically have a heart of the order type hitter batting first in the line up.

[CubColtPacer]

So good at it that he hit into 19 double plays? And my comparison isn't meaningless just because you say it is.

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

Kosuke hits a lot of ground balls to the right side naturally. So he actually becomes a better person to hit runners over because he can do that while striving for a base hit at the same time.

 

And a minor nitpick: Kosuke's SLG was .2 better, not .02.

.379 vs .359 is .02.

 

your point about hitting to the right side naturally is valid though. i'm just not ready to essentially demote a guy after a solid year, in hopes that fukudome won't suck so badly like he did in '08.

 

Thanks for the correction..I'm not sure what I was thinking!

 

Yeah, I understand that thought about letting Fukudome prove he's doing better than Theriot before switching them. At the same time, baseball is a game of guesses. You'll always be behind some teams if you take the safe route and just go on past performance..as a GM and a manager you have to take your best guess on what these people will do in the future and be willing to make those tough calls moving your pieces around.

 

Plus for lineup balance if you move Fukudome to 8th that puts Fontenot, Fukudome, and a primarily left-handed bench in the final 3 spots of the lineup, which makes it much easier for teams to bring in a left-hander to mow them down.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Even if you think Fukudome is going to continue to be awful, there's no reason to put Theriot in the second spot over Fontenot against RHP(which is really what we're talking about, since Fontenot and Fukudome won't be playing against LHP).

 

V. RHP

Theriot 2008: .308/.379/.355/.734

Theriot career: .286/.350/.351/.702

 

Fontenot 2008: .302/.393/.518/.911

Fontenot career: .298/.379/.473/.852

 

Fontenot is projected to be a better hitter by every projection system as well. Plus, considering Soriano and Lee are pretty entrenched at 1st and 3rd in the order, it breaks up R-L-R like Lou loves so much.

 

Against LHP, Theriot and Johnson are both capable options, and you can probably justify either of them hitting 2nd with the other hitting 7th.

[TheDude]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

 

I don't want my #2 hitter to move runners over. I want him to get on base and drive runs in. If your offensive philosophy is to waste outs having your #2 guy just get your leadoff man into scoring position, you're doing yourself a disservice. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the odds of scoring a run with a man on 1st and 0 outs is a lot higher than a man on 2nd with 1 out.

well, your odds of scoring runs also greatly increase when you have your highest OBP guy hitting 2nd rather than 8th.

Ryan Theriot 2008 OBP: .387

Adam Dunn 2008 OBP: .386

 

Who do you want getting more at-bats?

 

That isn't a great example, as the correct answer is Theriot in front of Dunn. Dunn is far more likely to drive in Theriot and himself. Dunn in front Theriot yields the same OBP, but less Runs.

 

Don't mistake my commentary as an opposing viewpoint to the overall discussion. I just think this example is actually counter to your argument.

[SouthSideRyan]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

 

I don't want my #2 hitter to move runners over. I want him to get on base and drive runs in. If your offensive philosophy is to waste outs having your #2 guy just get your leadoff man into scoring position, you're doing yourself a disservice. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the odds of scoring a run with a man on 1st and 0 outs is a lot higher than a man on 2nd with 1 out.

 

I think we should bat Ryan Dempster second when he pitches cause he's a good bunter and can get runners over.

[SouthSideRyan]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

 

I don't want my #2 hitter to move runners over. I want him to get on base and drive runs in. If your offensive philosophy is to waste outs having your #2 guy just get your leadoff man into scoring position, you're doing yourself a disservice. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the odds of scoring a run with a man on 1st and 0 outs is a lot higher than a man on 2nd with 1 out.

well, your odds of scoring runs also greatly increase when you have your highest OBP guy hitting 2nd rather than 8th.

 

Your odds of scoring runs greatly decrease when you have your lowest SLG guy hitting 2nd rather than 8th.

 

See what I did there??

[cubbinalltheway]

as i thought, those are total numbers. meaning they include situations where he came up with the bases empty. so they're meaningless when talking about his ability to move runners over.

 

I don't want my #2 hitter to move runners over. I want him to get on base and drive runs in. If your offensive philosophy is to waste outs having your #2 guy just get your leadoff man into scoring position, you're doing yourself a disservice. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the odds of scoring a run with a man on 1st and 0 outs is a lot higher than a man on 2nd with 1 out.

well, your odds of scoring runs also greatly increase when you have your highest OBP guy hitting 2nd rather than 8th.

 

Your odds of scoring runs greatly decrease when you have your lowest SLG guy hitting 2nd rather than 8th.

 

See what I did there??

chimed into the middle of a perfectly good discusssion with a smart assed reply that didn't really add anything of value, per usual?

[Sammy Sofa]

chimed into the middle of a perfectly good discusssion with a smart assed reply that didn't really add anything of value, per usual?

 

Actually, he made a very good point that pertained directly to the conversation.

[weitliz]

as for the two-hole, Piniella said they'll play around with it

 

:-))

[Derwood]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

[chuckywang]

So the last time Lou saw Fukudome play baseball, he was throwing him under the bus. Now he's penciling him in as no. 2?

 

Makes sense.

[cubbinalltheway]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

perhaps the point wouldn't have been missed had he used a relevant example.

[jersey cubs fan]

So the last time Lou saw Fukudome play baseball, he was throwing him under the bus. Now he's penciling him in as no. 2?

 

Makes sense.

 

He makes as much sense as anybody at the 2 hole.

[Derwood]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

perhaps the point wouldn't have been missed had he used a relevant example.

 

no, you missed it.

 

the point was to compare to players with nearly identical OBP's (but vastly different other stats), not to compare to players who are candidates to bat 2nd on the Cubs.

[cubbinalltheway]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

perhaps the point wouldn't have been missed had he used a relevant example.

 

no, you missed it.

 

the point was to compare to players with nearly identical OBP's (but vastly different other stats), not to compare to players who are candidates to bat 2nd on the Cubs.

umm, but the discussion is who should bat 2nd for the cubs.

[Derwood]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

perhaps the point wouldn't have been missed had he used a relevant example.

 

no, you missed it.

 

the point was to compare to players with nearly identical OBP's (but vastly different other stats), not to compare to players who are candidates to bat 2nd on the Cubs.

umm, but the discussion is who should bat 2nd for the cubs.

 

:banghead:

[cubbinalltheway]

yes, it's very meangingless. what does a player on the washington nationals have to do with anything regarding who should bat 2nd in the cubs lineup?

 

way to completely miss the point

perhaps the point wouldn't have been missed had he used a relevant example.

 

no, you missed it.

 

the point was to compare to players with nearly identical OBP's (but vastly different other stats), not to compare to players who are candidates to bat 2nd on the Cubs.

umm, but the discussion is who should bat 2nd for the cubs.

 

:banghead:

if that's too hard for you to understand, maybe you should just stop trying.

[Derwood]

good lord

[David]

obvious troll is obvious

[erik316wttn]

.379 vs .359 is .02.

 

your point about hitting to the right side naturally is valid though. i'm just not ready to essentially demote a guy after a solid year, in hopes that fukudome won't suck so badly like he did in '08.

 

While it's great to make .02 look like an insignificant difference in SLG between two players, Theriot had 24 XBH's in 661 PA's. Fukudome had 38 XBH's in 590 PA's.

 

Theriot isn't being demoted. He's being placed in the line up where his type of production is best suited. Especially when you basically have a heart of the order type hitter batting first in the line up.

 

So then it's confirmed Soriano will stay in the leadoff spot? I know there was talk of moving him down in the order during the offseason.

[Guest]

.379 vs .359 is .02.

 

your point about hitting to the right side naturally is valid though. i'm just not ready to essentially demote a guy after a solid year, in hopes that fukudome won't suck so badly like he did in '08.

 

While it's great to make .02 look like an insignificant difference in SLG between two players, Theriot had 24 XBH's in 661 PA's. Fukudome had 38 XBH's in 590 PA's.

 

Theriot isn't being demoted. He's being placed in the line up where his type of production is best suited. Especially when you basically have a heart of the order type hitter batting first in the line up.

 

So then it's confirmed Soriano will stay in the leadoff spot? I know there was talk of moving him down in the order during the offseason.

When they interviewed Lou about it, he talked about Soriano being flexible but wanting to be at one place instead of jumping up and down the order. Lou went on to point out that they don't really have anyone else slated to be a regular that looks like a traditional leadoff man, so it might as well stay Soriano.

 

He then equivocated a couple more times before flip-flopping a few more.

 

In the end, it seemed like he just wasn't sold on anyone else to replace Soriano at leadoff, so Alf will probably be there again this season.