Re: College Football - Week of 11/29

[imb]

do one dimensional offenses have two guys that will end the year with over 1,000 rushing yards and a QB with over 40 TD passes and over 4,000 yards passing with a 68.2 completion rate

 

is that good

 

does anyone know

 

anyone

 

maybe one dimensional means something else and im way off here

[RedFlash]

I could see a USC or a Florida slowing OU down in a bowl game more than teams in the regular season have for the simple fact that they'll have a 4 or 5 weeks to prepare rather than a week or two.

 

that and the fact that they have good defensive players. i know less about florida than i do about usc, but usc's defense is really, really good.

 

Yes they are. Between Florida/OU/Texas/TTU/USC, USC is the team I look forward to playing the least. Which is why I'm hoping they stay the heck out of the BCS discussion for this yr. Next yr, I say bring them on, because next yr Alabama will have enought talent and depth to match up with USC.

 

I maybe a tool when it comes to Alabama, but even I know that TTU/Texas/OU are teams that could easily put up 35 points on Alabama or even Florida's defense. But on the flip side both Alabama and Florida could easily dominate those Big XII teams and limited them to less the 20 points in any game. It would come down to whoever executes their game plans.

But those games would fun to watch nonetheless.

[SpongeWorthy]

All right then. Maybe unlike 2003, 2004, and 2007 this years version of the Sooners will be a world beater offense that plays better than somewhere between festering ass and average at the end of the year.

 

And my point about one dimensionality was maybe phrased incorrectly. I didn't mean to suggest they were Hawaii or Texas Tech. But I maintain that if you can slow down their short-intermediate passing attack you'll win. Yes, they may put up the same kinds of numbers in rushing as AD's teams did but if I found my passing game bogging down, would I have the same faith in Demarco Murray and Chris Brown as I did in Peterson?

[imb]

I maintain that if you can slow down their short-intermediate passing attack you'll win

 

i wonder if anyone's tried that this year

 

you might want to start making some calls

[imb]

dear head coach,

 

i watched part of an ou game this year

 

all you need to do is stop their heisman trophy contending, record breaking qb from completing passes to his deep stable of talented receivers and to his awesome tight end while he's protected by the best offensive line in the nation

 

don't thank me, i'm just here to help

 

good luck in your future endeavors

[imb]

PS

 

i forgot to mention, watch out for those running backs, they've combined for 36 tds this year

 

youre welcome for the tip

[SpongeWorthy]

all you need to do is stop their heisman trophy contending, record breaking qb from completing passes to his deep stable of talented receivers and to his awesome tight end while he's protected by the best offensive line in the nation

 

How did we get into Jason White?

 

We all know he was never slowed down by good defenses.

[Mephistopheles]

See, if you looked at just the stats you might conclude something crazy like Rainey and Demps are better runningbacks than Beanie Wells and Knowshown Moreno.

 

Try telling every one of Florida's opponents otherwise. Dependable grind it out Big Ten style backs are completely overrated and fairly useless in this place called reality. Wells and Moreno are better inside the tackles runners than Rainey and Demps, but Rainey and Demps for whatever reason are better at getting these important things called yards. Rainey and Demps are actually very very good inside the tackles and probably have higher YPCs than Moreno and Wells between the tackles too.

 

I mean afterall. Beanie Wells has carried the ball a whopping 191 times for 1091 yards. Demps and Harvin have combined for 1067 yards on just two thirds the carries (116) . In fact the Gators triumvirate has 198 carries - just seven more - and have about 650 more yards. Those 1721 yards are just 8 yards fewer than Shonn Greene's total this year...on 80 fewer carries. Those 1721 yards are 130 more than Ringers'....on over 250 fewer carries. Those 1721 yards are 383 yard more than Moreno on thirty fewer carries.

 

Perhaps Demps, Rainey and company wouldn't be able to carry the ball 30 times a game for the entire season, but that's a good thing. Take Chris Wells for example, his longest run in the fourth quarter is 9 yards. Greene's production in the fourth quarter falls by nearly a yard per carry. Last year Moreno averaged nearly 6 yards per carry in the first three quarters. 3.85 in the fourth. Granted there are some sample size issues here, but c'mon let's run the tired guy out there the entire time. Is the tired guy really better than a 100% backup at universities like Ohio State, Florida and Georgia? Of course not. Lets mix them up and keep their legs fresh. Demps, Rainey and company pile up high runs consistently because they're faster than everyone else, and their legs are completely rested each time they get the ball. This is the future of the running back position. The days of grind it out 40 attempt backs are numbered. NFL teams are starting to get the picture and so are college coaches.

 

You run when you win, you don't run to win unless you run for high efficiency. You're "great" backs pile up empty yards in the former.

 

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1129/ncf_u_tebow03_600.jpg

Edited November 30, 2008 by Mephistopheles

[imb]

all you need to do is stop their heisman trophy contending, record breaking qb from completing passes to his deep stable of talented receivers and to his awesome tight end while he's protected by the best offensive line in the nation

 

How did we get into Jason White?

 

We all know he was never slowed down by good defenses.

 

you mean the year he faced an epic lsu defense with a broken bone in his foot, an injured hand, an offensive line that wasn't as good as this years', a running game that isn't as good as this years' and a receiving corps that isn't as good as this years?

 

i guess you could be talking about 2004, but that would be pretty dumb too, since everything i just said applies to that year, except for the running game which is this years' equal

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[imb]

oh i forgot, the offensive systems they ran those years are exactly the same as what they run this year

 

 

oh crap no they aren't they're complete opposites

 

crap i dont know what point you're trying to make, now. why don't you switch it up again

[Mephistopheles]

I didn't realize a team that is in the top 20 for rushing yards per game is one dimensional. There also top third in YPC. They can run the ball. If you think they only run when they're up....that is what all good teams do. Only bad teams run the ball when they're not up.

 

I should also point out that Oklahoma was sixth in rushing yards in the first half entering todays game.

[SpongeWorthy]

See, if you looked at just the stats you might conclude something crazy like Rainey and Demps are better runningbacks than Beanie Wells and Knowshown Moreno.

 

Try telling every one of Florida's opponents otherwise. Dependable grind it out Big Ten style backs are completely overrated and fairly useless in this place called reality. Wells and Moreno are better inside the tackles runners than Rainey and Demps, but Rainey and Demps for whatever reason are better at getting these important things called yards. Rainey and Demps are actually very very good inside the tackles and probably have higher YPCs than Moreno and Wells between the tackles too.

 

I mean afterall. Beanie Wells has carried the ball a whopping 191 times for 1091 yards. Demps and Harvin have combined for 1067 yards on just two thirds the carries (116) . In fact the Gators triumvirate has 198 carries - just seven more - and have about 650 more yards. Those 1721 yards are just 8 yards fewer than Shonn Greene's total this year...on 80 fewer carries. Those 1721 yards are 130 more than Ringers'....on over 250 fewer carries. Those 1721 yards are 383 yard more than Moreno on thirty fewer carries.

 

Perhaps Demps, Rainey and company wouldn't be able to carry the ball 30 times a game for the entire season, but that's a good thing. Take Chris Wells for example, his longest run in the fourth quarter is 9 yards. Greene's production in the fourth quarter falls by nearly a yard per carry. Last year Moreno averaged nearly 6 yards per carry in the first three quarters. 3.85 in the fourth. Granted there are some sample size issues here, but c'mon let's run the tired guy out there the entire time. Is the tired guy really better than a 100% backup at universities like Ohio State, Florida and Georgia? Of course not. Lets mix them up and keep their legs fresh. Demps, Rainey and company pile up high runs consistently because they're faster than everyone else, and their legs are completely rested each time they get the ball. This is the future of the running back position. The days of grind it out 40 attempt backs are numbered. NFL teams are starting to get the picture and so are college coaches.

 

You run when you win, you don't run to win unless you run for high efficiency. You're "great" backs pile up empty yards in the former.

 

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1129/ncf_u_tebow03_600.jpg

 

I totally concur that a stable of runningbacks will be seen more than the traditional workhorse in the future.

 

As for the NFL seeing the picture I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. The leading rushers in the NFL this year are Portis, Peterson, Turner, C. Johnson, T. Jones, Forte, D. Williams, Jacobs, Barber, and Gore. The only one out of that list that even begins to fit the mold of a Demps or Rainey is Chris Johnson.

 

And Wells and Moreno are both going to be drafted much higher than Demps or Rainey as well.

 

You also made some weird point earlier in this thread about how Tebow represented the future of NFL quarterbacking. Huh? If anything the last few years has seen the repudiation of mobile, spread-option type guys (Young, Smith, Vick, etc. vs. Cutler, Ryan, etc.)

[Mephistopheles]

I didnt say that the speed backs were taking over. I said that running back by committee is taking over. That being said you would expect the leading rushers in the NFL to be power backs not speed backs since speed backs don't get a lot of carries. I didn't say anything about Tebow style QBs being the future of the NFL. I merely said that more and more pass first QBs are being asked to run than before. Tebow fits that mold. He has work to do with adjusting to the NFL pro style offense, but the tools are there for him to make it. He's a high risk high reward guy who will be popped in the first round.

 

For what it's worth: People only say that a spread-option offense can't work in the NFL. No one's actually tried to fully implement it. The reason that spread-option guys have struggled in the NFL is that most of them don't have the background knowledge of the very intricate NFL offense that they have to run. It's a completely different setup than they've spent their entire life doing. That's probably going to be the biggest thing for Tebow. Forget his slow delivery or anything else that you think is physically wrong with him as a QB. We both accept that he's got at the very least average to above average pure passing skills. Tim Tebow has run the spread since he was twelve years old. It's the only style of football he knows. He's taken all of 17 snaps in his college career from under the center...and I'd reckon half of those are QB kneels and the other half are 1 yard QB sneaks. He does have one TD pass out of it (this year vs Hawaii), but those two adjustments are going to be the key as to whether or not he makes it in the NFL. It's not going to be his arm strength, throwing motion, accuracy or anything like that. It's going to be how well he adjusts to the new style.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Mephistopheles

[SpongeWorthy]

oh i forgot, the offensive systems they ran those years are exactly the same as what they run this year

 

 

oh crap no they aren't they're complete opposites

 

crap i dont know what point you're trying to make, now. why don't you switch it up again

 

My original point that hasn't wavered a bit was a suggestion that Big XII coaches probably weren't doing an adequate job of game planning (whether through effort or imagination) a defense for OU.

 

It seems yours is that OU is just that good that no other conclusion can be drawn except that their offense is so overwhelming that defensive coordinators are totally blameless for their teams failures. This is in spite of a very recent history of OU having what were touted as world class offenses that played anywhere from atrocious to average against teams with good defenses (when the very biggest prizes in the sport were on the line, mind you).

[SpongeWorthy]

I didnt say that the speed backs were taking over. I said that running back by committee is taking over. That being said you would expect the leading rushers in the NFL to be power backs not speed backs since speed backs don't get a lot of carries. I didn't say anything about Tebow style QBs being the future of the NFL. I merely said that more and more pass first QBs are being asked to run than before. Tebow fits that mold. He has work to do with adjusting to the NFL pro style offense, but the tools are there for him to make it. He's a high risk high reward guy who will be popped in the first round.

 

For what it's worth: People only say that a spread-option offense can't work in the NFL. No one's actually tried to fully implement it.

 

If by "fully implement" you mean a full blown Oregon/Florida style attack--it'll never happen.

 

No owner, GM, or head coach would tolerate a quarterback taking as many hits on the pro level as say Tebow or Dennis Dixon did at the collegiate level.

[imb]

oh i forgot, the offensive systems they ran those years are exactly the same as what they run this year

 

 

oh crap no they aren't they're complete opposites

 

crap i dont know what point you're trying to make, now. why don't you switch it up again

 

My original point that hasn't wavered a bit was a suggestion that Big XII coaches probably weren't doing an adequate job of game planning (whether through effort or imagination) a defense for OU.

 

It seems yours is that OU is just that good that no other conclusion can be drawn except that their offense is so overwhelming that defensive coordinators are totally blameless for their teams failures. This is in spite of a very recent history of OU having what were touted as world class offenses that played anywhere from atrocious to average against teams with good defenses (when the very biggest prizes in the sport were on the line, mind you).

 

no my point is that OU's offense just might be a little more complex than "just slant routes!" and if it isn't, that the personnel just must be overwhelming because you'd think someone might have watched tape on them at some point in the year

 

there was also that thing about the offense being one dimensional, but i think we've disproved that

 

it's almost like you dont actually know what you're talking about

[Mephistopheles]

and thirty years ago no owner, GM, or head coach would tolerate a quarterback throwing the football across the line of scrimmage more than a handful of times. You don't know the future. All it takes is one guy to successfully implement even part of it.

[Mephistopheles]

no my point is that OU's offense just might be a little more complex than "just slant routes!" and if it isn't, that the personnel just must be overwhelming because you'd think someone might have watched tape on them at some point in the year

 

there was also that thing about the offense being one dimensional, but i think we've disproved that

 

it's almost like you dont actually know what you're talking about

 

 

Anyways the OU passing game isnt very complicated. It's been running a bunch of patterns that end up where the DBs aren't and letting Bradford throw to them in fifteen yard windows.

[SpongeWorthy]

oh i forgot, the offensive systems they ran those years are exactly the same as what they run this year

 

 

oh crap no they aren't they're complete opposites

 

crap i dont know what point you're trying to make, now. why don't you switch it up again

 

My original point that hasn't wavered a bit was a suggestion that Big XII coaches probably weren't doing an adequate job of game planning (whether through effort or imagination) a defense for OU.

 

It seems yours is that OU is just that good that no other conclusion can be drawn except that their offense is so overwhelming that defensive coordinators are totally blameless for their teams failures. This is in spite of a very recent history of OU having what were touted as world class offenses that played anywhere from atrocious to average against teams with good defenses (when the very biggest prizes in the sport were on the line, mind you).

 

no my point is that OU's offense just might be a little more complex than "just slant routes!" and if it isn't, that the personnel just must be overwhelming because you'd think someone might have watched tape on them at some point in the year

 

there was also that thing about the offense being one dimensional, but i think we've disproved that

 

it's almost like you dont actually know what you're talking about

 

The slant/crossing routes remarks were firmly tongue in cheek. I thought that was blindingly obvious. When I refer to them as "revolutionary" and "ground breaking" I'm being more than slightly facetious.

 

I'll admit that I haven't watched every snap of OU football this year but I've watched quite a bit. Are my points about them using primarily (exclusively?) shot gun, lots of underneath/timing routes, not a huge emphasis on the deep ball, not a ton of motion/misdirection way off? Clearly you watch more Sooner football than I do so I'll just take it back if I'm wrong.

 

From what I can gather, a huge portion of their attack involves Bradford sitting in the gun and picking apart a team to death on short to intermediate stuff. They execute it extraordinarily well. I only submit that defenses could do better and if they face Florida and Bama in the BCS title game it'll be much tougher slogging.

Edited November 30, 2008 by SpongeWorthy

[imb]

no my point is that OU's offense just might be a little more complex than "just slant routes!" and if it isn't, that the personnel just must be overwhelming because you'd think someone might have watched tape on them at some point in the year

 

there was also that thing about the offense being one dimensional, but i think we've disproved that

 

it's almost like you dont actually know what you're talking about

 

 

Anyways the OU passing game isnt very complicated. It's been running a bunch of patterns that end up where the DBs aren't and letting Bradford throw to them in fifteen yard windows.

 

the actual routes aren't complicated, but whose are? it's not like anyone has WRs putting quintuple moves on anyone

 

the no-huddle, constant-audible adjustment nature of our offense, to go along with a good-great running game and a great offensive line is a pretty tough thing to stop

 

if it was as easy as just defending a slant route, it would have been done by now

 

cutting it off is doable, but it's not like these defenses have been screwing around and not watching tape. like someone is going to just realize "DUDES, SLANT PASSES CRAP!" and everyone is going to feel like an idiot. "slant passes! jesus, we watched 100 hours of tape on OU and we never realized they ran slant routes!"

[SpongeWorthy]

and thirty years ago no owner, GM, or head coach would tolerate a quarterback throwing the football across the line of scrimmage more than a handful of times. You don't know the future. All it takes is one guy to successfully implement even part of it.

 

Thirty years ago, throwing a football across the line of scrimmage more than a handful of times didn't really involve a multimillion dollar investment taking vicious shots from the most freakish athletes on the planet.

 

Tebow would never, ever, survive (as in have a career of meaningful length with adequate health) the sort of punishment in the NFL that he did in college. I doubt any QB could.

[imb]

oh i forgot, the offensive systems they ran those years are exactly the same as what they run this year

 

 

oh crap no they aren't they're complete opposites

 

crap i dont know what point you're trying to make, now. why don't you switch it up again

 

My original point that hasn't wavered a bit was a suggestion that Big XII coaches probably weren't doing an adequate job of game planning (whether through effort or imagination) a defense for OU.

 

It seems yours is that OU is just that good that no other conclusion can be drawn except that their offense is so overwhelming that defensive coordinators are totally blameless for their teams failures. This is in spite of a very recent history of OU having what were touted as world class offenses that played anywhere from atrocious to average against teams with good defenses (when the very biggest prizes in the sport were on the line, mind you).

 

no my point is that OU's offense just might be a little more complex than "just slant routes!" and if it isn't, that the personnel just must be overwhelming because you'd think someone might have watched tape on them at some point in the year

 

there was also that thing about the offense being one dimensional, but i think we've disproved that

 

it's almost like you dont actually know what you're talking about

 

The slant/crossing routes remarks were firmly tongue in cheek. I thought that was blindingly obvious. When I refer to them as "revolutionary" and "ground breaking" I'm being more than slightly facetious.

 

I'll admit that I haven't watched every snap of OU football this year but I've watched quite a bit. Are my points about them using primarily (exclusively?) shot gun, lots of underneath/timing routes, not a huge emphasis on the deep ball, not a ton of motion/misdirection way off? Clearly you watch more Sooner football than I do so I'll just take it back if I'm wrong.

 

From what I can gather, a huge portion of their attack involves Bradford sitting in the gun and picking apart a team to death. They execute it extraordinarily well. I only submit that defenses could do better and if they face Florida and Bama in the BCS title game it'll be much tougher slogging.

 

well of course. are you trying to tell me that bama and florida play better defense than texas tech? heavens no

 

what passing team doesn't pass out of the shotgun with a lot of underneath/timing routes? is there a team somewhere running nothing but go routes and just chucking it 40 yards downfield every time they don't line up in the i-form?

 

anyway, it's not some mind-blowing, crazy-ass gimmick offense. it's a no-huddle, line-audible offense with great personnel at every position. it's overrated because people just look at the numbers sometimes without realizing that no one in the big 12 plays any defense, but it's still one of the best college offenses in the nation. i'd put OU, Florida and USC's offenses all in the same group. they all do different things but the end results are the same.

[imb]

and thirty years ago no owner, GM, or head coach would tolerate a quarterback throwing the football across the line of scrimmage more than a handful of times. You don't know the future. All it takes is one guy to successfully implement even part of it.

 

Thirty years ago, throwing a football across the line of scrimmage more than a handful of times didn't really involve a multimillion dollar investment taking vicious shots from the most freakish athletes on the planet.

 

Tebow would never, ever, survive (as in have a career of meaningful length with adequate health) the sort of punishment in the NFL that he did in college. I doubt any QB could.

 

last year everyone had andre woodson pegged as first rounder. rocket arm, tall, big, athletic. then they realized he took forever to get through his throwing motion and he got picked in the 6th or 7th round and got cut.

 

tebow has the same throwing motion, but he's short and fat. he won't be a good NFL qb

[TruffleShuffle]

all you need to do is stop their heisman trophy contending, record breaking qb from completing passes to his deep stable of talented receivers and to his awesome tight end while he's protected by the best offensive line in the nation

 

How did we get into Jason White?

 

We all know he was never slowed down by good defenses.

 

jason white was undrafted; sam bradford will be a top 10 pick and probably a franchise qb in the nfl. i'm downgrading your argument quality from fail to epic fail.

[SpongeWorthy]

Are you under some astoundng delusion that I thought he was really talking about Jason White?

 

Or am I just not allowed to make a joke about a quarterback (who fit the given description to a T) who was horrific in the 3 biggest games of his career?