Re: Time to give Theriot less playing time?

[Brett]

Felix represents enough of a massive defensive upgrade from Edmonds to bridge the gap (somewhat) in offensive output. I have little doubt that Fukudome improves considerably next year which also will help duplicate this years success for the team.

 

As for Gomez, he's closing out the season well with 800+ September OPS after a brutal summer stretch. He won't, but should get GG consideration. Expect him to improve by a decent amount next year.

/Gomez apologistism

 

Gotta agree. If Pie can put up a .750-.770 OPS next year with great defense, I'd be happy.

[Peoriaman]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

[nilodnayr]

Thats fine as long as they make a major upgrade in the OF. We surely are not going to repeat our CF production without making an acquisition.

 

I know that it has become popular to write Pie off but I wouldn't just yet. Looking at young players like Ellsbury and Gomez for example, it's very difficult for me to believe that Pie would do worse in a full season. I'm sure that they will have a backup plan like Johnson or another version of Edmonds (Cameron? Pods? eww I cant' believe i just brought up Pods) ready in place but I'm also near certain that they will give Pie every chance to win the job in spring.

 

Don't throw out the baby with the water.

 

Sorry, but we've gotten a 292/375/487 line out of CF this year. If you think Pie can put that up, more power to you. I would have like to have given Pie a real shot this year, but we can't settle for "OK" next year if we can go out and get "really good", especially if we have a new owners money.

[David]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

[David]

Not saying I know for sure who I prefer out of the two...but it's not like it's a slam dunk either way.

[Peoriaman]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

[David]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

 

 

Because Theriot hasn't made just about the most stupid mistakes on the team this year.

[BigbadB]

I'll admit that Theriot has been better than Cedeno this year, but that doesn't mean the Cubs shouldn't look to upgrade the SS position this offseason.

 

While Theriot does have a good OBP, he suffers in a lot of other areas to the point he becomes replaceable. His range is average and his arm is weak. He's nothing special on the basepaths and he's second on the team in GIDP's. His lack of power is probably the most noteworthy stat of all. I'm not asking for HR's here. 19 doubles is beyond pathetic. Heck, he should have 19 doubles just from stretching long singles with his speed. Maybe most of the doubles he does have are from that, but that further exaggerates the lack of power.

 

The craptacularness of Neifi Perez managed 33 doubles with the Cubs in 2005. Neifi also had nearly twice as many XBH's than Theriot has this year.

 

The Cubs don't just have a black hole at SS at the major league level. They have one all through the minors as well. And it's been that way for years and years. If there is any one position I would like to see an upgrade this offseason, SS is #1 on my list.

[Guest]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

 

Remember that time Theriot decided to throw the ball to the outfield while he was on his back? Seems really intelligent.

[bukie]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

 

That's certainly a fantastic example of cherry picking a play. Nobody's saying Cedeno should get all the playing time, but I'm dumbfounded by anyone who thinks it's a slam dunk.

 

Advantages of Cedeno: Extra-base hits, range, throwing arm

Advantages of Theriot: Walks/getting on base, success rate on balls hit in his zone

 

I'd still like to see Cedeno at SS and Theriot at 2B on days when both of them play. Not necessarily because Cedeno is that much better of an option at short, but because the defensive weaknesses Theriot has are scaled down a lot at 2B, and the defensive weaknesses Cedeno has exist at either position, so the overall defense should be improved.

[SouthSideRyan]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

 

Remember that time Theriot decided to throw the ball to the outfield while he was on his back? Seems really intelligent.

 

Remember that month long stretch where Theriot couldn't go 2 games without being thrown out on the basepaths?

[Cynosure]

Man, I still can't believe anybody here would go with Cedeno over Theriot. I am dumbfounded.

 

 

Cedeno has a lot of physical talent, seems to have an improving approach at the plate, and his minor league numbers dwarf Theriot's. And he's younger.

 

Theriot is a nice decent league minimum player who doesn't hurt the team too much, but it's not like he's a great player. Why is this so astounding?

 

Have you watched Cedeno at the plate? He is clueless.

 

How about in the field? Remember the double play up the middle he muffed and lost us a game 2 weeks ago? I never want the ball hit to him past the 5th inning. He may be one of the least intelligent players I have ever seen.

 

 

Because Theriot hasn't made just about the most stupid mistakes on the team this year.

 

This is exactly right... but most people overlook it. He's like a bad version of David Eckstein.

[Mizzou]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

[David]

He also can't go five routine throws without double clutching for some odd reason. His rag arm makes this doubly annoying.

[Mizzou]

This is exactly right... but most people overlook it. He's like a bad version of David Eckstein.

Aside from the fact that not once in his career has Eckstein ever gotten on base as frequently as Theriot has this year, you're totally right!

[David]

It would've been more accurate to say that, at least as an offensive player, he pretty much IS a younger David Eckstein.

 

Theriot's numbers this year are a bit better than Eckstein's best, but either way they're very similar players.

 

That bodes pretty well for Ryan. He should at least get a few million bucks out of his career.

 

 

But I think he meant that the dumb stuff he does is what tilts the scale toward worse than Eckstein.

 

I can't really speak for this because I haven't seen Eckstein play enough to know how many boneheaded things he does over the course of a year.

[bukie]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

[Sammy Sofa]

This is exactly right... but most people overlook it. He's like a bad version of David Eckstein.

Aside from the fact that not once in his career has Eckstein ever gotten on base as frequently as Theriot has this year, you're totally right!

 

How do they compare speed-wise and defensively?

[SouthSideRyan]

This is exactly right... but most people overlook it. He's like a bad version of David Eckstein.

Aside from the fact that not once in his career has Eckstein ever gotten on base as frequently as Theriot has this year, you're totally right!

 

How do they compare speed-wise and defensively?

 

Eckstein's probably a slightly better defender, while Theriot is faster. Eckstein's a better baserunner in spite of that.

[BigbadB]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

 

I would almost always give a statistical advantage to the guy playing everyday over someone spot starting/pinch hitting on very rare occasions. Thus, I don't think it's all that fair to compare the two statistically.

 

Looking closely at Cedeno's splits, his best month was directly following Spring Training, where he more than likely saw more regular at bats. As the season progressed, his stats trended downward as he saw less and less at bats. Granted, he most certainly wouldn't have been able to match what he did in March/April all season long, but it makes perfect sense that someone's timing starts deteriorating when they receive limited plate appearances over the course of a long season.

 

With that said, there aren't many good utility infielders floating around and I don't know how much more anyone could expect from any replacement for Cedeno. I don't think anyone could have predicted what Fontenot has done this season, and I don't think you can predict that same production next year.

[Mizzou]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

[SouthSideRyan]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

 

I'm glad you refrained from comparing Theriot favorably to Cedeno when Cedeno was struggling. I'm certainly glad that people didn't go around calling Cedeno useless and question why he was in the majors while he was struggling.

 

The entire season matters, and the fact that Theriot struggled recently means it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno?

[Mizzou]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

 

I'm glad you refrained from comparing Theriot favorably to Cedeno when Cedeno was struggling. I'm certainly glad that people didn't go around calling Cedeno useless and question why he was in the majors while he was struggling.

 

The entire season matters, and the fact that Theriot struggled recently means it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno?

Did I say that it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno? No. I simply said (in a pretty straight-forward way) that it sure is convenient that all the Cedeno guys are coming out again now that Theriot is slumping. No one was calling for Theriot to get less playing time earlier in the year; the guy finally goes through a rough patch and everyone calls for his head again so that the great Ronny Cedeno can get more time!

[nilodnayr]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

I (and I'm sure others) have been pointing out for a while (ie before Theriot''s slump) that if you look at his peripherals and basic skill set, he is wildly vulnerable to luck. Look beyond the OBP, SLG, and OPS and see WHY he has those numbers and you see a guy whos value pretty much wholey and completely is dependent on balls finding their way through the infield. Hes not a guy who provides much value in a single at bat, so he can't make up for unluckiness like other players can.

[Warren Brusstar]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

 

I would almost always give a statistical advantage to the guy playing everyday over someone spot starting/pinch hitting on very rare occasions. Thus, I don't think it's all that fair to compare the two statistically.

 

Looking closely at Cedeno's splits, his best month was directly following Spring Training, where he more than likely saw more regular at bats. As the season progressed, his stats trended downward as he saw less and less at bats. Granted, he most certainly wouldn't have been able to match what he did in March/April all season long, but it makes perfect sense that someone's timing starts deteriorating when they receive limited plate appearances over the course of a long season.

 

With that said, there aren't many good utility infielders floating around and I don't know how much more anyone could expect from any replacement for Cedeno. I don't think anyone could have predicted what Fontenot has done this season, and I don't think you can predict that same production next year.

 

I think it depends. With a player like Ronnie, the limited at-bats aren't taking advantage of a massive platoon split, so I think it's reasonable to think he'd be better with full-time play.

 

In other circumstances -- Reed Johnson, Matt Murton -- the overall numbers look better in part time play because a disproportionate number of at bats come with a huge platoon advantage. Neither Murton nor Johnson has looked as good in full time play when they are required to face RHP 70% of the time.