Comparing Santo and Rammy

[inari]

For the sake of this discussion, I'm considering these two the best third basemen the Cubs have ever had. I don't think there will be anyone to challenge that, but maybe someone could throw someone obvious at me that I'm missing. Anyways...

 

Career numbers

Rammy (11 seasons): .283/.341/.502 113 OPS+ .280 EQA

Ronny (14 seasons): .277/.362/.464 125 OPS+ .294 EQA

 

Rammy's numbers will only go up as he continues to distance himself from some pretty bad years with Pittsburgh.

 

Five best seasons EQA:

Rammy: .305, .304, .301. .300, .295

Ronny: .339, .337, .328, .319, .305

Five best seasons OPS+:

Rammy: 138, 135, 132, 129, 126

Ronny: 164, 161, 153, 146, 139

 

Obviously, what Santo could do at his best was quite a bit more than Rammy has done at the best we've seen of him. However, I think it's quite reasonable to believe that Ramirez will end up with a greater number of outstanding seasons than Ronny, even if they never reach the level his did in terms of EQA.

 

Right now, Santo clearly was better than anything Rammy has done to this point. How much closer do you guys think this will be true at the end of Aramis' career, though? I think the gap will be narrowed quite a bit.

 

Oh, and just for the hell of it, the stats that people like HOF voters will look at will quite possibly be won by Ramirez. He's got a pretty good chance to pass Santo in both home runs and RBIs. He's pretty consistent with a high batting average and he's already beating Santo in that department.

Edited August 26, 2008 by inari

[OleMissCub]

The only one you are really forgetting is Stan Hack.

 

16 seasons with the Cubs: .301/.394/.397, 119 OPS+

[Laura]

When Bellhorn was moved to 3B, they said that the only other Cubs 3Bman to bat regularly in the 1-2 spot was Stan Hack.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Santo was used at 1 & 2 in the lineup very early in his career, but certainly not enough to be called regular.

 

Also, Ronnie was often called "The new Stan Hack" early in his career.

[OleMissCub]

Posted these before, but hey, I'll post them again:

 

 

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1695/ronnieswing2ue0.gif........ http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/ronthrow.gif........http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/ronpick3.gif

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/rond.gif........http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9922/santofield3pb9.gif

[Cynosure]

Hard to compare the eras they played in.

 

Santo's era was pitching dominated while Ramirez's was hitting dominated.

[jersey cubs fan]

Rozner put out another half-assed column where he attempts to praise Ramirez by ripping him about a half dozen times in just a couple paragraphs.

 

 

He tries to claim that Ramirez is the most improved player (with Dempster as MVP and Soto as best hitter), despite the fact that he's done nothing more this year than he's done for the previous 4. He says Ramirez talked to Lou about being a leader and team player and it shows.

 

How Barry? Your column makes absolutely no sense. Ramirez has been playing better and better defense every year. He's been the Cubs most productive and consistent hitter for 5 years now.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Aramis has better legs

[David]

Aramis has better legs

 

 

too soon

[MPrior]

Looking at those numbers just emphasizes how ridiculous it is that Santo's not in the HOF. Ramirez is AWESOME. I love having him on the team, he's a beast. And yet, Santo's fifth-best season is as good or better than anything Ramirez has ever done. How can someone have been that much better than Ramirez, who's incredible, and not be in the HOF?

 

Dead horse, I know, but jeez. It just makes me mad.

[jersey cubs fan]

Right now, Santo clearly was better than anything Rammy has done to this point. How much closer do you guys think this will be true at the end of Aramis' career, though? I think the gap will be narrowed quite a bit.

 

Oh, and just for the hell of it, the stats that people like HOF voters will look at will quite possibly be won by Ramirez. He's got a pretty good chance to pass Santo in both home runs and RBIs. He's pretty consistent with a high batting average and he's already beating Santo in that department.

 

Well, Ramirez is already 30, and he's missed a fair amount of time already. We've likely seen the best we'll ever see from him, and he is likely to battle injury situations now and again the rest of his career.

[kjfoster 1553]

Aramis has better legs

 

 

too soon

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Aramis has better legs

 

 

too soon

idiotic

[David]

i wasn't serious

[TruffleShuffle]

Hard to compare the eras they played in.

 

Santo's era was pitching dominated while Ramirez's was hitting dominated.

 

hence the existence of stats like EqA, ERA+, OPS+, VORP, etc.

[SouthSideRyan]

Aramis has better legs

 

 

too soon

idiotic

 

Agreed, Santo's like part man, part machine now. I'd imagine his legs are better.

[David]

Aramis has better legs

 

 

too soon

idiotic

 

Agreed, Santo's like part man, part machine now. I'd imagine his legs are better.

 

 

winner

[aeaasie]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

Edited August 26, 2008 by aeaasie

[David]

SERENITY NOW!

[Ding Dong Johnson]

i wasn't serious

I wasn't talking about you

[OleMissCub]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

[SouthSideRyan]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

[TruffleShuffle]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

aramis gets screwed in this measurement because you're counting 1998, 1999 and 2000 as seasons even though he played a total of 165 games in the big leagues. a better measurement is K/AB: aramis K's in 15.2% of his PA, and santo K'ed in 16.5% of his AB. not a huge difference, but it's still about 10% difference.

 

ronny did walk a lot more frequently, though.

[OleMissCub]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

[SouthSideRyan]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

 

Aramis only has to face Jose Lima.