Comparing Santo and Rammy

[Derwood]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

 

Ben Sheets, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy....

[OleMissCub]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

 

Ben Sheets, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy....

 

I guarantee you that Santo faced the monsters of his era more often than Ramirez faces those guys you listed. There were less teams back then and four man rotations.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

it doesn't appear as though his strikeout totals suffered after the mound was lowered. I was thinking maybe the difference between the two came from when the mound was higher, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't necessarily think the starting pitching is worse now, but Aramis also has the benefit of facing relievers more regularly than Santo (32% of his PAs vs 27% for Santo)

[Derwood]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

it doesn't appear as though his strikeout totals suffered after the mound was lowered. I was thinking maybe the difference between the two came from when the mound was higher, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't necessarily think the starting pitching is worse now, but Aramis also has the benefit of facing relievers more regularly than Santo (32% of his PAs vs 27% for Santo)

 

benefit or disadvantage? You can say that Santo got to face tired starters more often than Aramis.

[Sammy Sofa]

One of the most obvious arguments for Santo being in the HOF is his consistently excellent offensive numbers in what is considered far and away a pitcher's era of baseball. That simply is not the case with Aramis. Aramis is a power hitter in the age of power hitters. Santo was an offensive force for a decade when pitchers, by and large, ruled the game.

[OleMissCub]

Zero stats to back this up but I believe Santo struck out more often them Rammy

 

Thats one of the things I have always appreciated about Aramis, he has a power swing but hits so well with 2 strikes, makes contact

 

Santo K'd an average of 97 times a season and Aramis is at 92 a season.

 

I think that's a wash considering some of the pitcher's Santo had to face on a consistent basis.

 

Huh??

 

Ya know, guys like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning...

it doesn't appear as though his strikeout totals suffered after the mound was lowered. I was thinking maybe the difference between the two came from when the mound was higher, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't necessarily think the starting pitching is worse now, but Aramis also has the benefit of facing relievers more regularly than Santo (32% of his PAs vs 27% for Santo)

 

benefit or disadvantage? You can say that Santo got to face tired starters more often than Aramis.

 

I'd rather face a slew of good relievers than face Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax in their prime four to five times a year, tired or not.

[OleMissCub]

1965 Sandy Koufax started against the Cubs 4 times and struck out 38 Cubs batters and Gibson started against the Cubs 4 times and had 28 K's. In that same year Jim Bunning started 4 games against the Cubs and had 35 K's, and Juan Marichal had 3 starts against the Cubs with 23 K's.

 

In 2007, Brandon Webb faced the Cubs once and had 4 K's. Peavy faced the Cubs once and had 6 K's.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

just wanted to point out how good of a thing it is that we're able to have this debate

[SouthSideRyan]

1965 Sandy Koufax started against the Cubs 4 times and struck out 38 Cubs batters and Gibson started against the Cubs 4 times and had 28 K's. In that same year Jim Bunning started 4 games against the Cubs and had 35 K's, and Juan Marichal had 3 starts against the Cubs with 23 K's.

 

In 2007, Brandon Webb faced the Cubs once and had 4 K's. Peavy faced the Cubs once and had 6 K's.

 

Case closed. Two guys from the NL West in their 1 game sample size didn't have a lot of Ks. Santo ftw.

[OleMissCub]

1965 Sandy Koufax started against the Cubs 4 times and struck out 38 Cubs batters and Gibson started against the Cubs 4 times and had 28 K's. In that same year Jim Bunning started 4 games against the Cubs and had 35 K's, and Juan Marichal had 3 starts against the Cubs with 23 K's.

 

In 2007, Brandon Webb faced the Cubs once and had 4 K's. Peavy faced the Cubs once and had 6 K's.

 

Case closed. Two guys from the NL West in their 1 game sample size didn't have a lot of Ks. Santo ftw.

 

I wasn't the one who brought up Brandon Webb and Peavy, was I?

[Derwood]

1965 Sandy Koufax started against the Cubs 4 times and struck out 38 Cubs batters and Gibson started against the Cubs 4 times and had 28 K's. In that same year Jim Bunning started 4 games against the Cubs and had 35 K's, and Juan Marichal had 3 starts against the Cubs with 23 K's.

 

In 2007, Brandon Webb faced the Cubs once and had 4 K's. Peavy faced the Cubs once and had 6 K's.

 

In 2006, Aaron harang faced the Cubs 6 times and had 35 K's. In the same year, Bronson Arroyo faced Cubs 5 tims and had 25 K's. We could do this all day.

[OleMissCub]

1965 Sandy Koufax started against the Cubs 4 times and struck out 38 Cubs batters and Gibson started against the Cubs 4 times and had 28 K's. In that same year Jim Bunning started 4 games against the Cubs and had 35 K's, and Juan Marichal had 3 starts against the Cubs with 23 K's.

 

In 2007, Brandon Webb faced the Cubs once and had 4 K's. Peavy faced the Cubs once and had 6 K's.

 

In 2006, Aaron harang faced the Cubs 6 times and had 35 K's. In the same year, Bronson Arroyo faced Cubs 5 tims and had 25 K's. We could do this all day.

 

Fair enough. Nevertheless, I think it's a wash as far as K's go.

 

Getting back on the real topic, I'd take Santo in his prime over Ramirez in his. Santo averaged an OPS+ over 150 for a 5 year stretch...Aramis hasn't come close to that.

[champaignchris]

The only one you are really forgetting is Stan Hack.

 

More on Hack. http://baseballevolution.com/tony/hacksanto.html

 

The writer basically plays the same game between Hack and Santo as we are between Ram and Santo.

 

Hack gets a pretty raw deal historically because he was a lead off hitter playing what's usually considered to be a power hitting position.

 

EDIT - somehow forgot the link. Fixed now.

Edited August 27, 2008 by champaignchris

[OleMissCub]

The only one you are really forgetting is Stan Hack.

 

More on Hack. The writer basically plays the same game between Hack and Santo as we are between Ram and Santo.

 

Hack gets a pretty raw deal historically because he was a lead off hitter playing what's usually considered to be a power hitting position.

 

In Historical Abstract, Bill James has Santo ranked as the #6 3rd baseman of all time and Stan Hack at #9.

[champaignchris]

In Historical Abstract, Bill James has Santo ranked as the #6 3rd baseman of all time and Stan Hack at #9.

 

The author of the article I finally managed to link in my post above has Santo and Hack tied at #6. He says Hack had the marginally better bat and Santo had the marginally better glove.