We won't win with Marquis

[jersey cubs fan]

Marquis has to be one of the most frustrating pitchers I have ever seen. He's the type of pitcher that you have to let your emotion go and look after the game at his line, because he just does the dumbest things on the mound, and melts down half the time to boot. Watching him, it actually somewhat amazes me that there are 37 pitchers in the majors who have thrown at least 40 innings (so basically any starter who has pitched the majority of the season) that have a worse ERA than him.

I said earlier in the year that I wasn't sure if 2008 or 2009 would be the year he would be really bad. I knew he would likely be decent for one, bad for the other. It looks like 2008 will be the bad year. He simply cannot find the plate, and for a guy who is hittable as he is, that doesn't produce good results.

 

They either need to know what is wrong with his control right now and be taking steps to fix it, or they need to cut bait. If they don't know what's wrong, it's not likely to fix itself, and Marquis will continue to be only marginally effective without it.

 

I'm certainly not defending him, but doesn't that make him the best 5th starter in baseball?

 

Yeah, I threw that in there to say that while perception may make all of us think one of he's the worst we've ever seen, he's really not quite that bad. Right now his numbers are in that frustrating middle zone. He's not good enough to really be productive or to be able to trade him, but he isn't really bad enough to get cut either.

 

That is just a horrible way to look at it.

 

There may be 37 other starters with a worse ERA, but are they spread across all 30 teams? Are the just filling in temporarily. Are those ERA's park adjusted?

 

And are they signed to the type of contract Marquis is signed to?

 

I got news for you, Jason Marquis is not the Cubs 5th starter. He was signed to be more like a 3, and as far as guaranteed spots in the rotation he's a 4 right now. A 5th starter is in danger of losing his job at all times. Marquis has been handed his because of his ridiculous contract, and that ridiculous contract cannot be removed from the discussion.

 

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't argue that Marquis is the best 5th starter in the league. Most of the names behind him are not temporary fill ins though, but many of them aren't usual 5th starters either. They're big money guys having bad years. Verlander, Buerhle, Meche, Penny, Oswalt, Myers, Lilly, Arroyo, Zito, Batista, Snell, Silva are just some of the guys.

 

And no, those ERA's are not park adjusted, but if they were, that is a huge benefit to Marquis. The number grows closer to 50 pitchers if you look at ERA+ rather than ERA.

 

And yes, I realize that Marquis was not signed to be the 5th starter. He certainly wasn't signed to be the 3rd though. In this market, you don't sign somebody for just 7 million dollars to be your 3rd starter. That's more like 4th starter money. 3rd starters have been getting 10-13 million per year.

 

I'm not removing the contract from the discussion either. It's what makes the Cubs decision really hard right now. The decision making would be a lot easier one way or the other if he didn't have that crazy year 3 on there (which is the main thing that I have not liked about the contract...I'd rather have signed Marquis to 2/15 or even 2/16 than 3/21. His career with other coaches and tuning them out after a certain period of time made this type of situation very reasonable to happen after the decent first year that Marquis delivered).

 

The thing is, 5th starter, like leadoff hitter and super utility player, is not actually a position. You employ starting pitchers and relief pitchers. And Jason Marquis is a really bad starting pitcher. Saying there are worse is meaningless, as there will always be worse players at any position.

[RazzinGTO]

The other 3 threads are moronic. This one is true.

 

SHAM STARTER

 

+1, this is the only "we will not win with...." thread that needs to stay alive. Marquis just plain cannot pitch. I can't believe his performance has been given so much slack.

[Tracer Bullet]

i will say he serves a purpose...but i for one will be happy when his thrill-ride starts are a thing of the past...

 

He should serve a purpose if he could actually last past the 5th. But he's gone 6 only 3 of 11 starts. Lasting 5 and giving up 3 all the time is about the opposite of purpose.

 

That's my biggest problem with his performance. His ERA isn't terrible for us, especially since we have a good offense this year. But I just wish he could go 6-7 innings more often. I'm sure he could, but I mean without his ERA ballooning up even more.

[Soul]

His career with other coaches and tuning them out after a certain period of time made this type of situation very reasonable to happen after the decent first year that Marquis delivered).

That seems to be his MO: Have decent first year, get swelled ego and stop listening to coaches, have crappy year, move on to next team, repeat.

 

Yep. Isn't that what the Cards said about this guy? Just stopped listening. I don't remember the Braves shedding too many tears when he left, either.

[jersey cubs fan]

So at what point to they stop caving in to his threats about going to the bullpen and just assign him to a relief role? He's scheduled to go Sunday and is probably the only option (unless Hart takes that turn), but then the Cubs have three straight weeks with a Monday off-day. If they don't make a move he'd start again on Saturday in Toronto, but then they could start finding ways to skip him. They should be able to find a way to mix-in something like Marshall/Marquis sharing an 8-9 innig load in a few games, as neither is a strong candidate to go 6+ but both are decent bets to last 4 fairly effective innings.

[CuseCubFan69]

So at what point to they stop caving in to his threats about going to the bullpen and just assign him to a relief role? He's scheduled to go Sunday and is probably the only option (unless Hart takes that turn), but then the Cubs have three straight weeks with a Monday off-day. If they don't make a move he'd start again on Saturday in Toronto, but then they could start finding ways to skip him. They should be able to find a way to mix-in something like Marshall/Marquis sharing an 8-9 innig load in a few games, as neither is a strong candidate to go 6+ but both are decent bets to last 4 fairly effective innings.

 

I'm thinking they have to be shopping him and hoping he'll do something that would make him attractive to a team that is desperate for starting pitching. Once he goes to the pen, every once of value he had would be gone, not even the goofiest of GM's would bite then.

[CubColtPacer]

So at what point to they stop caving in to his threats about going to the bullpen and just assign him to a relief role? He's scheduled to go Sunday and is probably the only option (unless Hart takes that turn), but then the Cubs have three straight weeks with a Monday off-day. If they don't make a move he'd start again on Saturday in Toronto, but then they could start finding ways to skip him. They should be able to find a way to mix-in something like Marshall/Marquis sharing an 8-9 innig load in a few games, as neither is a strong candidate to go 6+ but both are decent bets to last 4 fairly effective innings.

 

The way Marquis's starts fall the next couple weeks, it will be hard to skip him. The off days need to fall right before his starts in order to skip him, and they end up falling right after his starts. They could probably skip his turn the week of the 23rd.

 

And Marquis/Marshall piggybacking off of one another isn't a bad idea, but the Cubs need to get Marshall healthy again first.

[Soul]

So Marquis is going to ruin my Sunday. GREAT! :banghead:

[jersey cubs fan]

So at what point to they stop caving in to his threats about going to the bullpen and just assign him to a relief role? He's scheduled to go Sunday and is probably the only option (unless Hart takes that turn), but then the Cubs have three straight weeks with a Monday off-day. If they don't make a move he'd start again on Saturday in Toronto, but then they could start finding ways to skip him. They should be able to find a way to mix-in something like Marshall/Marquis sharing an 8-9 innig load in a few games, as neither is a strong candidate to go 6+ but both are decent bets to last 4 fairly effective innings.

 

I'm thinking they have to be shopping him and hoping he'll do something that would make him attractive to a team that is desperate for starting pitching. Once he goes to the pen, every once of value he had would be gone, not even the goofiest of GM's would bite then.

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those who with badass offenses that will make up for his sucking.

 

We already see that he's still a problem for the 2nd type (the Cubs have a great offense but still struggle to get even the mediocre innings they need from him). So you'd need to be able to find a team that's just crazy desperate for a warm body out there. Going by starters' IP, the Yankees and Mets could be candidates. Texas is a pseudo contender who also doesn't get many innings from starters. But I still don't see much room for trade. The best way to showcase him may be to show he can be an effective long man, and then hopefully entice another team to think they can stretch that out into being an effective starter.

[CuseCubFan69]

So at what point to they stop caving in to his threats about going to the bullpen and just assign him to a relief role? He's scheduled to go Sunday and is probably the only option (unless Hart takes that turn), but then the Cubs have three straight weeks with a Monday off-day. If they don't make a move he'd start again on Saturday in Toronto, but then they could start finding ways to skip him. They should be able to find a way to mix-in something like Marshall/Marquis sharing an 8-9 innig load in a few games, as neither is a strong candidate to go 6+ but both are decent bets to last 4 fairly effective innings.

 

I'm thinking they have to be shopping him and hoping he'll do something that would make him attractive to a team that is desperate for starting pitching. Once he goes to the pen, every once of value he had would be gone, not even the goofiest of GM's would bite then.

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those who with badass offenses that will make up for his sucking.

 

We already see that he's still a problem for the 2nd type (the Cubs have a great offense but still struggle to get even the mediocre innings they need from him). So you'd need to be able to find a team that's just crazy desperate for a warm body out there. Going by starters' IP, the Yankees and Mets could be candidates. Texas is a pseudo contender who also doesn't get many innings from starters. But I still don't see much room for trade. The best way to showcase him may be to show he can be an effective long man, and then hopefully entice another team to think they can stretch that out into being an effective starter.

 

Maybe Hendry is still waiting for Hill to come back as well. There has to be some kind of reasoning for him to be there and imo moving to the pen is the kiss of death unless you don't care if you get anyone back in trade. I'd be surprised that they couldn't move him to Texas for a C type minor leaguer but I really don't know the Rangers money issues (good or bad) if they could absorb a guy like Marquis financially to gamble on him. If he's stuck on this team, I'd move him to the pen yesterday.

[jersey cubs fan]

Maybe Hendry is still waiting for Hill to come back as well. There has to be some kind of reasoning for him to be there and imo moving to the pen is the kiss of death unless you don't care if you get anyone back in trade.

 

Maybe if this was April 1 and you were still hoping for the flukish start to the season. If you move him to the bullpen tomorrow you won't be able to trade him tomorrow, but you won't be able to trade him as a starter either. At least moving him to the pen offers a chance that he'll show something there. He simply cannot throw a quality start. So why not see if he can throw 4 effective innings now and again? Teams are always looking for relief help even if starters are more valuable. Who cares if he doesn't want to do that? He's done nothing to warrent the coddling of his ego.

[CuseCubFan69]

Maybe Hendry is still waiting for Hill to come back as well. There has to be some kind of reasoning for him to be there and imo moving to the pen is the kiss of death unless you don't care if you get anyone back in trade.

 

Maybe if this was April 1 and you were still hoping for the flukish start to the season. If you move him to the bullpen tomorrow you won't be able to trade him tomorrow, but you won't be able to trade him as a starter either. At least moving him to the pen offers a chance that he'll show something there. He simply cannot throw a quality start. So why not see if he can throw 4 effective innings now and again? Teams are always looking for relief help even if starters are more valuable. Who cares if he doesn't want to do that? He's done nothing to warrent the coddling of his ego.

 

I agree and if his whining is the thing that is keeping him on the starting staff, I'd be surprised. Something has to be up with this that we don't know because it just doesn't make sense.

[NCCubFan]

His career with other coaches and tuning them out after a certain period of time made this type of situation very reasonable to happen after the decent first year that Marquis delivered).

That seems to be his MO: Have decent first year, get swelled ego and stop listening to coaches, have crappy year, move on to next team, repeat.

 

Yep. Isn't that what the Cards said about this guy? Just stopped listening.

Yep; reportedly he stopped listening to Duncan his last year with the Cardinals (the year he was left off of the postseason roster).

[SouthSideRyan]

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those who with badass offenses that will make up for his sucking.

 

We already see that he's still a problem for the 2nd type (the Cubs have a great offense but still struggle to get even the mediocre innings they need from him). So you'd need to be able to find a team that's just crazy desperate for a warm body out there. Going by starters' IP, the Yankees and Mets could be candidates. Texas is a pseudo contender who also doesn't get many innings from starters. But I still don't see much room for trade. The best way to showcase him may be to show he can be an effective long man, and then hopefully entice another team to think they can stretch that out into being an effective starter.

 

Seems like a fit for the Tigers.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those who with badass offenses that will make up for his sucking.

 

We already see that he's still a problem for the 2nd type (the Cubs have a great offense but still struggle to get even the mediocre innings they need from him). So you'd need to be able to find a team that's just crazy desperate for a warm body out there. Going by starters' IP, the Yankees and Mets could be candidates. Texas is a pseudo contender who also doesn't get many innings from starters. But I still don't see much room for trade. The best way to showcase him may be to show he can be an effective long man, and then hopefully entice another team to think they can stretch that out into being an effective starter.

 

Seems like a fit for the Tigers.

 

Maybe on the surface. But Detroit is getting as many innings from their starters as the Cubs (in fact a fraction more). They kind of have the market cornered on warm bodies with 5 ERAs. And that's without Dontrelle pitching much yet. I don't see them as a fit. They need somebody who can pitch without sucking, not just a guy who can show up every 5th day.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those who with badass offenses that will make up for his sucking.

 

We already see that he's still a problem for the 2nd type (the Cubs have a great offense but still struggle to get even the mediocre innings they need from him). So you'd need to be able to find a team that's just crazy desperate for a warm body out there. Going by starters' IP, the Yankees and Mets could be candidates. Texas is a pseudo contender who also doesn't get many innings from starters. But I still don't see much room for trade. The best way to showcase him may be to show he can be an effective long man, and then hopefully entice another team to think they can stretch that out into being an effective starter.

team #1 = Padres

team #2 = the team he's on

[Little Slide Rooter]

 

There's two types of teams that could justify interest in Marquis.

 

1) Those who just don't have any warm bodies in their rotation.

2) Those that love our garbage.

 

team #1 = Orioles

team #2 = Orioles

 

fixed

Edited June 4, 2008 by Little Slide Rooter

[twothousandfive]

He should serve a purpose if he could actually last past the 5th. But he's gone 6 only 3 of 11 starts. Lasting 5 and giving up 3 all the time is about the opposite of purpose.

The 61 innings in those 11 starts would have had to come from someone else and they way they are treating Hill is way beyond choosing Marquis over Hill. Gallagher's in the rotation, so he can't replace Marquis.

 

The "purpose" I believe is to get some innings and starts from Marquis in the early part of the season, where he typically has done better. He has been worse than usual, but in the 11 starts, he has gone at least 5 innings in all, and let up 5 runs three times, four runs once. The rest have been three or less. That means 11 starts where they aren't out of the game when Marquis is done, and seven where they are certainly within three runs.

 

Typically, he gets worse from here, so sometime in June they need to boot him from the rotation. That should be for Hill or Marshall -- and they get the benefit of "saving" those 60 plus innings from their younger pitchers. With a likely spot start for Leiber and/or Marquis, and the ability to potentially trade off between Marshall and Gallagher, they have a decent chance of keeping all these guys fresh into Sep and Oct.

 

The thing is, 5th starter, like leadoff hitter and super utility player, is not actually a position. You employ starting pitchers and relief pitchers. And Jason Marquis is a really bad starting pitcher. Saying there are worse is meaningless, as there will always be worse players at any position.

But there are also reasons to believe there are worse on the Cubs, also. Like, so far this year, maybe Lilly, though at his best he is clearly much better than Marquis. Just as 5th starter isn't a real position, there isn't really "meaningful" and "not meaningful" starts. Apr and May count as much as Aug and Sep -- but for whatever reason Marquis has been much better in Apr/May than later. So he gets starts then, and gets yanked before he can show us all his 6+ ERA in Jul/Aug.

 

Piniella didn't let him pitch in the post-season, got angry when Marquis was mouthing off in the spring, and was clearly livid last night. At some point I also remember Piniella noting that Marquis struggles post-ASB. Marquis won't last the year in the rotation, and there is every reason to believe they are planning to have Hill or Marshall take Marquis' spot soon.

 

What's really missing is someone making it clear to Piniella and Hendry that they are a better choice than Marquis. Rich Hill, please stop walking batters in Iowa. We're waiting for you.

[Backtobanks]

If you can find a team with deep pockets and a great offense, you might be able to trade him for a low-level prospect. Don't forget that the team that gets him will get a draft pick if he leaves, so some team could take a chance on him if the Cubs eat part of his contract.

[jersey cubs fan]

If you can find a team with deep pockets and a great offense, you might be able to trade him for a low-level prospect. Don't forget that the team that gets him will get a draft pick if he leaves, so some team could take a chance on him if the Cubs eat part of his contract.

 

He's not a free agent until after 2009, and there's no telling how low his grade will be by then, or even if compensation will still be around.