Should Hill be sent down or sent to the 'pen

[C.C.]

Giving Hill a couple of starts in AAA to regain his control and composure is not a bad thing.

[TarzanJoeWallis]

We can argue all day whether or not he should have stayed in or not, but to try and make the case that Hill isn't having that bad of a year . . . and use last night's lone ER as proof, is not remotely productive. We might as well compliment him on his spectacular 1.5 K/IP from last night

 

Don't forget, he was also throwing a no-hitter last night.

 

(My first opportunity to use the green sarcasm color)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Third best ERA in the rotation despite ridiculously quick hook in some of his effective starts. Too many BBs in too short a sample to project from.

 

No reason at all to remove him from the rotation. This team is throwing away a No. 2 starter because they are stupid, reactionary and believe in ST results. I hope they lose the division just because I'm sick of seeing them do stupid things all the time and paper over their mistakes with large piles of cash and hoping the rest of the division doesn't win more than 84 games.

[C.C.]

We can argue all day whether or not he should have stayed in or not, but to try and make the case that Hill isn't having that bad of a year . . . and use last night's lone ER as proof, is not remotely productive. We might as well compliment him on his spectacular 1.5 K/IP from last night

 

Don't forget, he was also throwing a no-hitter last night.

 

(My first opportunity to use the green sarcasm color)

 

Cards didn't have to hit it.

[Tyrant]

Third best ERA in the rotation despite ridiculously quick hook in some of his effective starts. Too many BBs in too short a sample to project from.

 

ERA doesn't mean anything. You of all people should know that.

 

No reason at all to remove him from the rotation. This team is throwing away a No. 2 starter because they are stupid, reactionary and believe in ST results. I hope they lose the division just because I'm sick of seeing them do stupid things all the time and paper over their mistakes with large piles of cash and hoping the rest of the division doesn't win more than 84 games.

 

They're not throwing him away. It's very clear to anyone watching that something is majorly wrong with Hill's delivery. Last night was one of the worst pitching performances I've ever seen -- he wasn't anywhere near the strike zone. His mechanics are completely out of whack. Whether that's due to Hill or Rothchild's tinkering, I don't know. But he needs to get it figured out, and soon.

 

I'm not one to believe that Rich has "mental approach" issues or whatever, but this is a pretty big problem. He better get it turned around, or it's going to be a tremendous -- and unfortunate -- waste of talent.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

All pitchers hit rough patches with their mechanics. You know how they work out of it? They pitch.

 

It may never have gotten this bad if he hadn't been jerked around from day one of the season, pulled for no reason in some starts and outright skipped in others.

[C.C.]

All pitchers hit rough patches with their mechanics. You know how they work out of it? They pitch.

 

 

 

And every pitcher is different. Hill will work his way out of it...Probably in AAA where he's always done well. I don't understand why people are so against this idea?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

All pitchers hit rough patches with their mechanics. You know how they work out of it? They pitch.

 

 

 

And every pitcher is different. Hill will work his way out of it...Probably in AAA where he's always done well. I don't understand why people are so against this idea?

 

At this point, it probably has to be done. We're just angry that it was ever allowed to get to this point.

 

The Cubs have stupided their way into a decision that has to be made, as usual.

[Derwood]

....when Ted Lilly was busy giving up 5 runs a game and not taking any heat for it...

 

 

2.7 runs per game. not 5.

 

/pet peeve

[Keener98]

Color me surprised that a pitcher who has struggled with his control in the past, couldnt find the strikezone after not starting for 9 freaking days. Hey Lou maybe if you quit dicking him around and let him stay on a normal schedule like the rest of the starters, maybe he would return to being one of the top 30 pitchers in baseball like last year.

[C.C.]

Color me surprised that a pitcher who has struggled with his control in the past, couldnt find the strikezone after not starting for 9 freaking days. Hey Lou maybe if you quit dicking him around and let him stay on a normal schedule like the rest of the starters, maybe he would return to being one of the top 30 pitchers in baseball like last year.

 

 

He wasn't right before the 9 days rest.

[Jon]

Color me surprised that a pitcher who has struggled with his control in the past, couldnt find the strikezone after not starting for 9 freaking days. Hey Lou maybe if you quit dicking him around and let him stay on a normal schedule like the rest of the starters, maybe he would return to being one of the top 30 pitchers in baseball like last year.

 

 

He wasn't right before the 9 days rest.

He also wasn't bad (5 IP, 3 H, 2 ER, 4 BB, 3 K on 84 pitches at Coors and 5 IP, 3 H, 1 ER, 3 BB, 4 K on 82 pitches vs. the Pirates).

 

Not pitching Hill was not and will not be an acceptable solution to his control problems.

 

I'd love for Lou to at least once not over-react and to see the big picture, but I don't see that happening.

[CubColtPacer]

BTW, their FIP numbers so far this year:

 

Zambrano: 3.31

Dempster: 4.34

Marquis: 4.54

Lilly: 4.63

Hill: 5.89

[Hairyducked Idiot]

BTW, their FIP numbers so far this year:

 

Zambrano: 3.31

Dempster: 4.34

Marquis: 4.54

Lilly: 4.63

Hill: 5.89

 

FIP is a projection stat. If we're using projections, we should use something more accurate than a small sample. Like all the projections that say Marshall is better than Dempster or Marquis.

[CubColtPacer]

BTW, their FIP numbers so far this year:

 

Zambrano: 3.31

Dempster: 4.34

Marquis: 4.54

Lilly: 4.63

Hill: 5.89

 

FIP is a projection stat. If we're using projections, we should use something more accurate than a small sample. Like all the projections that say Marshall is better than Dempster or Marquis.

 

FIP is designed to work with small samples..that's the point of using it over something like ERA. The larger sample we get, the more actual production becomes accurate, and the more we can rely on things like ERA. At this point of the season, FIP is very valuable to show how lucky pitchers have been so far. The numbers clearly show that Hill has been very lucky so far that the control problems haven't resulted in very bad numbers.

 

That doesn't mean you can project that sample onto the rest of the season unless you have reason to believe that peripherals like walks and strikeouts will remain the same. With Hill, unless those mechanics change, and unless that walk rate goes way down, that "third best ERA" will not continue for long.

 

I'm not arguing against the people who have said that Hill just needs a little while to change his mechanics and he should be fine. He's a great pitcher. What I am arguing against is the people who said he's been fine so far. He simply hasn't been. He's been terrible, and he's gotten bailed out by much higher than average luck.

[anabiono]

i think the boy needs to be sent down and will be sent down

 

i read on yahoo that marshall might be taking over in the rotation and that sucks

 

if lieber doesn't get the nod i am going to be pissed

 

whatever...cub's management is just beyond confusing...so, i suppose i won't really be surprised

[Little Slide Rooter]

Hill should be sent down to Iowa, just long enough to figure out how to throw strikes again. Hopefully it wont be too long. Still, if it comes down to it, Id be satisfied with:

 

Z

Lilly

Dempster

Lieber

Gallagher/Marshall

 

Pen

Wuertz

Howry

Fox

Cotts

Wood

Marmol

Gallagher/Marshall

 

When Eyres ready, Cotts, Marshall, or Gallagher go down.

 

and yes, Im well aware that I forgot about Marquis.

Edited May 3, 2008 by Little Slide Rooter

[Hairyducked Idiot]

i think the boy needs to be sent down and will be sent down

 

i read on yahoo that marshall might be taking over in the rotation and that sucks

 

if lieber doesn't get the nod i am going to be pissed

 

whatever...cub's management is just beyond confusing...so, i suppose i won't really be surprised

 

Yeah, why take the guy with the 3.92 ERA last season when you can have the guy who has thrown 19.1 hot innings?

[Amazing_Grace]

I have to wonder if the Hill situation is turning any gears in Hendry's mind yet. Hill was the guy the O's initially wanted for Roberts. If he isn't going to start, he becomes very interesting as trade bait. I think the Cubs are one more bat from being a top 5 offense (maybe that's Roberts, maybe it's someone else), and if that's the case, I think we can probably live with Zambrano and bunch of 3 and 4 starters.

 

I think you put Lieber in the rotation. It probably isn't a long-term solution, but it will get us through the next couple months until the trade deadline, then we see whether we can trade for another starter, or whether it's more cost effective to go after offense. In the meantime, you send Hill to AAA to work out his control problems with the option of either trading a starter and bringing Hill to the rotation, or trading Hill, depending on what happens between now and then.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I have to wonder if the Hill situation is turning any gears in Hendry's mind yet. Hill was the guy the O's initially wanted for Roberts. If he isn't going to start, he becomes very interesting as trade bait. I think the Cubs are one more bat from being a top 5 offense (maybe that's Roberts, maybe it's someone else), and if that's the case, I think we can probably live with Zambrano and bunch of 3 and 4 starters.

 

I think you put Lieber in the rotation. It probably isn't a long-term solution, but it will get us through the next couple months until the trade deadline, then we see whether we can trade for another starter, or whether it's more cost effective to go after offense. In the meantime, you send Hill to AAA to work out his control problems with the option of either trading a starter and bringing Hill to the rotation, or trading Hill, depending on what happens between now and then.

 

I was thinking the sam thing, only with Boston instead of Baltimore.

[Keener98]

I think the appropriate title for this thread, is "Should Lou be Fired or sent to the woodshed"?

[17 Seconds]

I think we can probably live with Zambrano and bunch of 3 and 4 starters.

 

Yeah, if you're interested in winning this crappy division with 86 wins and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.

 

If our rotation is struggling, then how about instead of trading for a second baseman, we trade for a pitcher? Is that such a radical idea?

[anabiono]

I think we can probably live with Zambrano and bunch of 3 and 4 starters.

 

Yeah, if you're interested in winning this crappy division with 86 wins and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.

 

If our rotation is struggling, then how about instead of trading for a second baseman, we trade for a pitcher? Is that such a radical idea?

 

i am with you ross

[SouthSideRyan]

He should stay in the rotation.

[Amazing_Grace]

I think we can probably live with Zambrano and bunch of 3 and 4 starters.

 

Yeah, if you're interested in winning this crappy division with 86 wins and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.

 

If our rotation is struggling, then how about instead of trading for a second baseman, we trade for a pitcher? Is that such a radical idea?

 

It would depend on who is available and at what cost. There have been plenty of "ok but not great" starting rotations that won WS because of great offenses. The Yankees rotation was never as good as the Braves and they won a lot more championships. If the Cubs had a rotation of Z, Lieber, Lilly, Marquis, and Dempster, that's not great, but it's not horrible either. There are also plenty of in-house options if one of those guys flames out. Marshall could be moved to the rotation. Gallagher could be called up. Marmol could probably be stretched out to start.

 

If I'm Hendry, I look at my team and I see we could go either way, trying to become an offensive powerhouse with a mediocre rotation or a team with an above average offense and rotation. I prefer the latter, but if I can get the former at a lower cost than the latter, well, then I have to weigh how much more chance I have to reach the playoffs with the two options. In any event, I'd rather have one than neither.

 

It's a long way yet to the trade deadline and plenty can happen between now and then. Theriot isn't going to hit .320 all year and Dempster isn't going to have a 3.16 ERA all year. I just think that the move ought to be send Hill to AAA before he loses all value and see what happens with the team for 2 months, then make a decision at that point whether to trade and for what.