Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?

[brinoch]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

[TruffleShuffle]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

 

actually it's just looking ahead to when soriano is back healthy and playing nearly every day. unless the cubs go to a softball lineup and play a roving fielder, cedeno "starting regularly" means cedeno supplanting one of the current starters.

[MPrior]

While I am a Cedeno supporter, and I think he's the better bet to be an adequate SS that Theriot, I can see what Truffle is saying. Theriot was given the starting job at the beginning of the season, and proceeded to hit the cover off the ball - he's doing very, very well. Permanently benching him now, purely from a player-manager relationship perspective, may be a bad idea. It does two things - it bewilders and angers Theriot, who hasn't actually done anything to lose his job, but more importantly, it calls into question the trust between the manager and his players. And I know that, to some, that may be a complete non-issue, but I'm sure Lou doesn't feel that way. As a matter of protocol, if a manager wants to be respected by his players and avoid unrest in the clubhouse, he shouldn't just bench a guy when he's hitting as well as Theriot is.

 

That said, I agree with Brinoch - try to get them both in there as often as possible while Soriano's injured. Afterwards, gradually phase Ronny in and Ryan out. Outright replacing Theriot now would probably be a mistake.

[Jehrico]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

 

actually it's just looking ahead to when soriano is back healthy and playing nearly every day. unless the cubs go to a softball lineup and play a roving fielder, cedeno "starting regularly" means cedeno supplanting one of the current starters.

If the AL can just up and make up a position one day with the DH, why can't we just up and add a 4th outfielder like you mentioned? :tomato:

 

 

 

 

:old_givebeer:

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

[David]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

 

 

I love TT.

[Guest]

Haha, age 7.

 

Classic Tranny.

[TruffleShuffle]

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

how absurd.

[Geech]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

 

I'm not sure you understand Truffle's argument, TT. Look it's very simple:

 

Cedeno is a complete and total bust. He's a failure as a ballplayer and as a human being. Whatever he's doing right now is a fleeting illusion, an artifact of a small sample size. His 2006 performance at age 23 proves he should never be a starter at any level of baseball, be it majors, minors, church-league softball or video game. The fact that you want to bench an .893 OPS for something that is barely a form of life just proves how illogical you are and invalidates your argument better than Truffle ever could.

 

I hope this clears things up.

[UK1679666180]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

[TruffleShuffle]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

 

I'm not sure you understand Truffle's argument, TT. Look it's very simple:

 

Cedeno is a complete and total bust. He's a failure as a ballplayer and as a human being. Whatever he's doing right now is a fleeting illusion, an artifact of a small sample size. His 2006 performance at age 23 proves he should never be a starter at any level of baseball, be it majors, minors, church-league softball or video game. The fact that you want to bench an .893 OPS for something that is barely a form of life just proves how illogical you are and invalidates your argument better than Truffle ever could.

 

I hope this clears things up.

 

 

[David]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

[TruffleShuffle]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

 

the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible.

[Tracer Bullet]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

 

Seriously? I understand if you're frustrated and tired of these arguments. But I have to question why you stop into a thread about whether Cedeno should start if you don't want to see people argue Cedeno v. Theriot. Soriano's going to be back in a week. At that point, DeRosa goes back to 2nd and Theriot and Cedeno are fighting over 1 spot. How is Cedeno v. Theriot off topic for this thread?

 

No one wants to discuss Cedeno v. Fontenot b/c there's no discussion. Who wants to start Fontenot over Cedeno (other than Lou)?

[Tracer Bullet]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

 

the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible.

 

So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical.

[UK1679666180]

He's always been aggressive, often overaggressive. He made progress in '05, expanded his zone in '06 at the majors, and did well last year in Iowa after struggling in the majors in 75 or so ABs.

 

One of the things you do when you're hot is see the ball well. I need more to be conviced that is a permanent thing.

[brinoch]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

 

Seriously? I understand if you're frustrated and tired of these arguments. But I have to question why you stop into a thread about whether Cedeno should start if you don't want to see people argue Cedeno v. Theriot. Soriano's going to be back in a week. At that point, DeRosa goes back to 2nd and Theriot and Cedeno are fighting over 1 spot. How is Cedeno v. Theriot off topic for this thread?

 

No one wants to discuss Cedeno v. Fontenot b/c there's no discussion. Who wants to start Fontenot over Cedeno (other than Lou)?

 

I read a lot of threads that I have absolutely no interest in as part of moderating the board.

 

I actually have an interest in this thread, other than moderating it, because I happen to think that it is past time to make Cedeno a starter (Opening Day would have been better). I've also said this several times, as have others: there's no need to make this decision until Soriano is ready to come back. Let them both play. There's every reason to debate Fontenot and Cedeno in this thread, and little to for Theriot and Cedeno. Cedeno hasn't lost time to Theriot; he's lost it to Fontenot. Soriano is out so DeRosa went to LF with Fontenot starting at second.

 

I learned a long time ago that problems have a way of solving themselves. This might be one of them. So, since playing Theriot and Cedeno aren't mutually exclusive, play them both and see how they hit and field day in and day out.

[TruffleShuffle]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

 

the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible.

 

So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical.

 

Pie had 200 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and has 36 at age 23.

Cedeno had 90 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and had 572 at age 23.

 

if pie gets nearly 600 PAs and is an absolutely brutal hitter this year, then you'll have a valid comparison.

[Tracer Bullet]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

 

the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible.

 

So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical.

 

Pie had 200 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and has 36 at age 23.

Cedeno had 90 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and had 572 at age 23.

 

if pie gets nearly 600 PAs and is an absolutely brutal hitter this year, then you'll have a valid comparison.

 

No, I think there's a basis for comparison now. I'm not saying they're identical, but they're certainly comparable. Esp when on the one hand you argue that Pie should be handed the job now and on the other hand don't have any interest if giving Cedeno an extended look over the likes of Theriot.

 

As you said yourself, Pie has the higher ceiling. I'd expect him to perform better at a younger age. But Pie #s at the majors to date are striking similar to Cedeno's 2006. And it's hard to argue Pie has looked worse (until the last 2-3 games) in his ABs than Cedeno did in '06.

[Rob]

Theriot should be the starter.

 

In Iowa.

[CubColtPacer]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

 

Cedeno should be getting PT, but he shouldn't be the starter over Theriot right now. MPrior laid out the argument perfectly. You don't name a guy a starter, and then pull the rug out from him after he's played well for a couple weeks just because your backup has played a little better over the 4-5 days that he's been in there. Lou would lose the respect of his team then and there. Who would feel safe anymore?

Before, you had clear expectations. If you were the starter, then simply produce. If you produced, you would stay in there. If you start taking starting roles out of guys hands who are producing, then every member of your team is going to be constantly looking over their shoulder. They have no way to assure their job security. IMO, that's going to do a lot more damage to your teams production then the advantages of having Cedeno in there.

 

This is not an open competition for the job. The time for that is past. Theriot has the job (rightly or wrongly) and he gets the job until he proves he does not deserve it.

 

I now believe that Cedeno will end up the year as the starter at SS. I believe he's the better player over the course of the season with his new approach. I also believe that the Cubs would do more harm than good if they reversed their decision to have Theriot start right now when he's so productive.

 

In fact, the Cubs hurt Cedeno by naming him the starter right now. In that scenario, the pressure on Cedeno would be immense, and any slump he went into would be big trouble for him with the media calling for his head everyday. It's better for Ronny to come in after Theriot has slumped, have lower expectations placed on him, and slowly settle into the starter role that he'll hopefully inhabit for quite a while.

[TruffleShuffle]

Like Brinoch said, it's not an issue until Soriano comes back.

 

It's great that both players are playing well, show me how they handle it when they go cold. Hitting isn't about how you handle the highs, it's how you handle the lows.

 

I'm thrilled Cedeno has completely changed his apporach at the plate.

 

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k

 

You would know better than I would, though.

 

the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible.

 

So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical.

 

Pie had 200 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and has 36 at age 23.

Cedeno had 90 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and had 572 at age 23.

 

if pie gets nearly 600 PAs and is an absolutely brutal hitter this year, then you'll have a valid comparison.

 

No, I think there's a basis for comparison now. I'm not saying they're identical, but they're certainly comparable. Esp when on the one hand you argue that Pie should be handed the job now and on the other hand don't have any interest if giving Cedeno an extended look over the likes of Theriot.

 

As you said yourself, Pie has the higher ceiling. I'd expect him to perform better at a younger age. But Pie #s at the majors to date are striking similar to Cedeno's 2006. And it's hard to argue Pie has looked worse (until the last 2-3 games) in his ABs than Cedeno did in '06.

 

you're right, pie has looked terrible, just like ronny cedeno did. the difference is that pie has a history of taking some time to adjust to higher levels, and he's not been given that chance. his 236 PAs at the big league level have come in small chunks of playing time, divided by time in iowa, on the cubs' bench or between seasons. cedeno had 650 PAs, most of which came when he was the everyday starter for the cubs in 2006. there's a very big difference between the opportunity that pie has gotten with the big club so far, and the opportunity that cedeno had in 2006.

[Tracer Bullet]

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

 

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again.

 

The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments.

 

Seriously? I understand if you're frustrated and tired of these arguments. But I have to question why you stop into a thread about whether Cedeno should start if you don't want to see people argue Cedeno v. Theriot. Soriano's going to be back in a week. At that point, DeRosa goes back to 2nd and Theriot and Cedeno are fighting over 1 spot. How is Cedeno v. Theriot off topic for this thread?

 

No one wants to discuss Cedeno v. Fontenot b/c there's no discussion. Who wants to start Fontenot over Cedeno (other than Lou)?

 

I read a lot of threads that I have absolutely no interest in as part of moderating the board.

 

I actually have an interest in this thread, other than moderating it, because I happen to think that it is past time to make Cedeno a starter (Opening Day would have been better). I've also said this several times, as have others: there's no need to make this decision until Soriano is ready to come back. Let them both play. There's every reason to debate Fontenot and Cedeno in this thread, and little to for Theriot and Cedeno. Cedeno hasn't lost time to Theriot; he's lost it to Fontenot. Soriano is out so DeRosa went to LF with Fontenot starting at second.

 

I learned a long time ago that problems have a way of solving themselves. This might be one of them. So, since playing Theriot and Cedeno aren't mutually exclusive, play them both and see how they hit and field day in and day out.

 

Cedeno hasn't lost time to Theriot? Theriot has 70+ PAs as a SS this year. Cedeno has 30 some PAs, some at SS, some at 2B. Until 4 games ago, Cedeno rarely saw the field. Theriot was taking most of those ABs until Soriano got hurt. Fontenot has only taken a handful. But again, why is this an interesting discussion? Has anyone argued that Fontenot should be starting over Cedeno?

[Tracer Bullet]

If Cedeno doesn't start getting starts now, what exactly is necessary for him to ever start?

 

The arguments before were:

- Theriot is more of a sure thing, we can't afford 2006 Cedeno in the lineup again

- He was awful when he made the Major Leagues at age 7, he may be a AAAA guy

 

So now we have Cedeno getting some playing time and making the absolute most of it. He is raking, hitting for a high average, extra base hits, as well as having some outstanding at bats showing selectivity and taking some walks. He's made some stellar defensive plays that Theriot can only make in Second Life(if his character can fly), while limiting any snafus to the point where they are no more prevalent than Theriot being unable to make a play because of his physical limitations. If you don't start him now, then when? The whole "waiting for Theriot to cool down" is a cop out. The argument was never dependent on Theriot's performance before, and making it so now is disingenuous.

 

Cedeno should be getting PT, but he shouldn't be the starter over Theriot right now. MPrior laid out the argument perfectly. You don't name a guy a starter, and then pull the rug out from him after he's played well for a couple weeks just because your backup has played a little better over the 4-5 days that he's been in there. Lou would lose the respect of his team then and there. Who would feel safe anymore?

Before, you had clear expectations. If you were the starter, then simply produce. If you produced, you would stay in there. If you start taking starting roles out of guys hands who are producing, then every member of your team is going to be constantly looking over their shoulder. They have no way to assure their job security. IMO, that's going to do a lot more damage to your teams production then the advantages of having Cedeno in there.

 

This is not an open competition for the job. The time for that is past. Theriot has the job (rightly or wrongly) and he gets the job until he proves he does not deserve it.

 

I now believe that Cedeno will end up the year as the starter at SS. I believe he's the better player over the course of the season with his new approach. I also believe that the Cubs would do more harm than good if they reversed their decision to have Theriot start right now when he's so productive.

 

In fact, the Cubs hurt Cedeno by naming him the starter right now. In that scenario, the pressure on Cedeno would be immense, and any slump he went into would be big trouble for him with the media calling for his head everyday. It's better for Ronny to come in after Theriot has slumped, have lower expectations placed on him, and slowly settle into the starter role that he'll hopefully inhabit for quite a while.

 

That's a huge crock. You think Lee, Aram, Soriano, and Fukudome are looking over their shoulder? DeRosa spent all off season looking over his shoulder at Roberts' fat head and it doesn't seem to have hurt him now. Soto's not worried about Blanco. Pie's already looking over his shoulder. So that leaves...no one else.

 

You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. If Lou thinks Cedeno gives him the best chance to win, he gets the job. If Theriot doesn't understand and becomes a cancer, send him to Iowa (not that I think he will). He's expendable. People aren't going to lose respect for Lou b/c he plays the guy he thinks is better.

 

And the media isn't going to call for Cedeno's head if he slumps. He's not carrying this team, nor is the team expecting him too. He's going to hit 7th or 8th. Some who love the grit will call for his head, but they're idiots.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Cedeno should be getting PT, but he shouldn't be the starter over Theriot right now. MPrior laid out the argument perfectly. You don't name a guy a starter, and then pull the rug out from him after he's played well for a couple weeks just because your backup has played a little better over the 4-5 days that he's been in there. Lou would lose the respect of his team then and there. Who would feel safe anymore?

Before, you had clear expectations. If you were the starter, then simply produce. If you produced, you would stay in there. If you start taking starting roles out of guys hands who are producing, then every member of your team is going to be constantly looking over their shoulder. They have no way to assure their job security. IMO, that's going to do a lot more damage to your teams production then the advantages of having Cedeno in there.

 

This is not an open competition for the job. The time for that is past. Theriot has the job (rightly or wrongly) and he gets the job until he proves he does not deserve it.

 

You can't let past mistakes dictate present/future decisions.