Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm curiuos to see what they do against the 1st RH starter they face. If they play Pie in CF- as they should- that still leaves 4 guys Cedeno, Johnson, Derosa and Theriot for 3 spots. That's not even counting Murton. So who's the odd man out?

 

Theriot

Pie

Lee

Ramirez

Fukudome

Derosa- LF

Soto

Cedeno

 

 

It may depend on past history with the pitcher or the type of righty that is throwing against them.

[forbez18]

 

Cedeno's the better player. He's playing better now and likely to do so going forward. He gives the Cubs the best chance to win. That isn't true with any replacement for Pie or Hill. Those are the 2 best guys for their particular positions as well. You just have either a weird affinity for Theriot or prejudice against Cedeno. I don't know which, but I don't care. It's not little league. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. Cedeno is that guy now and also gives us the best chance long term.

 

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch.

[Tyrant]

Does Cedeno still have that strange thing going where he hits right handers better than lefties?

 

As it stands now, maybe Ronny should start against righties and Theriot against lefties. Ryan does hit left handers pretty well (career .857 OPS against them).

[CuseCubFan69]

On the Grand Slam Ronny hit, where was the pitch?

[bukie]

On the Grand Slam Ronny hit, where was the pitch?

 

Belt high, middle-in, looked like a mistake breaking ball that just kind of rolled over.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's pretty ridiculous to just say you can't bench Theriot because he's been doing well. All kinds of mediocre players have stretches of good performance. The hot hand theory doesn't hold for a guy that has had to miss time due to health issues. Theriot doesn't have the talent that Cedeno has. Cedeno is playing well, and while he should have been given the job to start, he clearly deserves to play more now. Theriot has never been more than a utility player thrust into a role he's not suited for. Let him slide over to 2nd for a couple days while Soriano is still out. If, by that time he is still producing well over expectations, then you consider letting him keep playing. But Cedeno has to play right now and for the foreseeable future.

[CuseCubFan69]

On the Grand Slam Ronny hit, where was the pitch?

 

Belt high, middle-in, looked like a mistake breaking ball that just kind of rolled over.

 

Thanks bukie. He seems to be able to hit middle out pretty well so far and I wonder why no one is challenging him inside.

[radarluv1]

another Q- i saw ronny had a called strike 3 with bases loaded yesterday. was that a good AB? if his HR went foul yesterday, maybe we're all wanting ryan to come back soon.

i didnt get to see the game, so i'm wondering how he looked at the plate.

[bukie]

another Q- i saw ronny had a called strike 3 with bases loaded yesterday. was that a good AB? if his HR went foul yesterday, maybe we're all wanting ryan to come back soon.

i didnt get to see the game, so i'm wondering how he looked at the plate.

 

That was a good AB, it was a borderline pitch low and outside. A good pitch that he just didn't pull the trigger on. He had 11 runners possible to drive in yesterday, and he knocked in 4 of them (the fifth RBI was himself). A 36% conversion rate is as good as can reasonably be asked for from any player in RBI situations.

 

I'm curious if there's a stat available that lists players RBI conversion %. That'd be much more useful than raw RBI to determine how effective a player is at run production.

 

It may seem like there are a lot of runners left on base, but that's merely because the Cubs are putting a lot of guys on base. More opportunities leads to more runs.

Edited April 23, 2008 by bukie

[CubColtPacer]

Does Cedeno still have that strange thing going where he hits right handers better than lefties?

 

As it stands now, maybe Ronny should start against righties and Theriot against lefties. Ryan does hit left handers pretty well (career .857 OPS against them).

 

Yup. He only has 29 AB's total this year, so obviously the data is prone to all sorts of noise, but he's 400 points better against right-handers than left-handers so far this year.

 

In his career in the majors, he's 135 points better in OPS against right-handers.

[CubColtPacer]

another Q- i saw ronny had a called strike 3 with bases loaded yesterday. was that a good AB? if his HR went foul yesterday, maybe we're all wanting ryan to come back soon.

i didnt get to see the game, so i'm wondering how he looked at the plate.

 

That was a good AB, it was a borderline pitch low and outside. A good pitch that he just didn't pull the trigger on. He had 11 runners possible to drive in yesterday, and he knocked in 4 of them (the fifth RBI was himself). A 36% conversion rate is as good as can reasonably be asked for from any player in RBI situations.

 

I'm curious if there's a stat available that lists players RBI conversion %. That'd be much more useful than raw RBI to determine how effective a player is at run production.

 

It may seem like there are a lot of runners left on base, but that's merely because the Cubs are putting a lot of guys on base. More opportunities leads to more runs.

 

If I'm understanding you right, isn't that one of the stats that Fred does? How many baserunners you knock in as a percentage of how many baserunners there were on when you were up.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

Cedeno's the better player. He's playing better now and likely to do so going forward. He gives the Cubs the best chance to win. That isn't true with any replacement for Pie or Hill. Those are the 2 best guys for their particular positions as well. You just have either a weird affinity for Theriot or prejudice against Cedeno. I don't know which, but I don't care. It's not little league. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. Cedeno is that guy now and also gives us the best chance long term.

 

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch.

 

My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS).

 

ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why.

[Guest]

another Q- i saw ronny had a called strike 3 with bases loaded yesterday. was that a good AB? if his HR went foul yesterday, maybe we're all wanting ryan to come back soon.

i didnt get to see the game, so i'm wondering how he looked at the plate.

 

That was a good AB, it was a borderline pitch low and outside. A good pitch that he just didn't pull the trigger on. He had 11 runners possible to drive in yesterday, and he knocked in 4 of them (the fifth RBI was himself). A 36% conversion rate is as good as can reasonably be asked for from any player in RBI situations.

 

I'm curious if there's a stat available that lists players RBI conversion %. That'd be much more useful than raw RBI to determine how effective a player is at run production.

 

It may seem like there are a lot of runners left on base, but that's merely because the Cubs are putting a lot of guys on base. More opportunities leads to more runs.

 

If I'm understanding you right, isn't that one of the stats that Fred does? How many baserunners you knock in as a percentage of how many baserunners there were on when you were up.

 

Yes, that is what bukie is asking and this is one of the multitude of stats Fred posts.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

another Q- i saw ronny had a called strike 3 with bases loaded yesterday. was that a good AB? if his HR went foul yesterday, maybe we're all wanting ryan to come back soon.

i didnt get to see the game, so i'm wondering how he looked at the plate.

 

That was a good AB, it was a borderline pitch low and outside. A good pitch that he just didn't pull the trigger on. He had 11 runners possible to drive in yesterday, and he knocked in 4 of them (the fifth RBI was himself). A 36% conversion rate is as good as can reasonably be asked for from any player in RBI situations.

 

I'm curious if there's a stat available that lists players RBI conversion %. That'd be much more useful than raw RBI to determine how effective a player is at run production.

 

It may seem like there are a lot of runners left on base, but that's merely because the Cubs are putting a lot of guys on base. More opportunities leads to more runs.

 

If I'm understanding you right, isn't that one of the stats that Fred does? How many baserunners you knock in as a percentage of how many baserunners there were on when you were up.

 

Yes, that is what bukie is asking and this is one of the multitude of stats Fred posts.

and last post I saw had Ronny leading the team in that category

[TruffleShuffle]

 

Cedeno's the better player. He's playing better now and likely to do so going forward. He gives the Cubs the best chance to win. That isn't true with any replacement for Pie or Hill. Those are the 2 best guys for their particular positions as well. You just have either a weird affinity for Theriot or prejudice against Cedeno. I don't know which, but I don't care. It's not little league. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. Cedeno is that guy now and also gives us the best chance long term.

 

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch.

 

My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS).

 

ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why.

 

i end up debating this over lots of threads and posts because people like you continually suggest that i have a weird affinity for theriot or a prejudice against cedeno. i've laid out my points before; cedeno was one of the five worst players in baseball over a full season at age 23, and also has a tendency to make stupid/careless plays on the basepaths and in the field. my opinion is that he won't improve enough over his horrid 2006 numbers to be a better player than theriot. hopefully i'm wrong. but please, stop suggesting that there aren't any logical reasons to support theriot over cedeno, and you won't have to worry about me posting so much in the "START CEDENO BENCH THERIOT" threads any more.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

Cedeno's the better player. He's playing better now and likely to do so going forward. He gives the Cubs the best chance to win. That isn't true with any replacement for Pie or Hill. Those are the 2 best guys for their particular positions as well. You just have either a weird affinity for Theriot or prejudice against Cedeno. I don't know which, but I don't care. It's not little league. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. Cedeno is that guy now and also gives us the best chance long term.

 

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch.

 

My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS).

 

ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why.

 

i end up debating this over lots of threads and posts because people like you continually suggest that i have a weird affinity for theriot or a prejudice against cedeno. i've laid out my points before; cedeno was one of the five worst players in baseball over a full season at age 23, and also has a tendency to make stupid/careless plays on the basepaths and in the field. my opinion is that he won't improve enough over his horrid 2006 numbers to be a better player than theriot. hopefully i'm wrong. but please, stop suggesting that there aren't any logical reasons to support theriot over cedeno, and you won't have to worry about me posting so much in the "START CEDENO BENCH THERIOT" threads any more.

 

No. I don't think there are logical reasons to support Theriot over Cedeno.

 

All you've said in this thread is that you can't bench Theriot b/c he has a high OPS. That's not logical. His replacement, who has more talent, has a better OPS and everything suggests that the odds favor him being the better player for the next several years.

[CubmanPi]

If I'm understanding you right, isn't that one of the stats that Fred does? How many baserunners you knock in as a percentage of how many baserunners there were on when you were up.

 

Yes, that is what bukie is asking and this is one of the multitude of stats Fred posts.

and last post I saw had Ronny leading the team in that category

Wouldn't be surprised - isn't he around 4/5 with bases juiced this season? (Maybe that was going into last game, or maybe that includes the K.)

[TruffleShuffle]

All you've said in this thread is that you can't bench Theriot b/c he has a high OPS. That's not logical. His replacement, who has more talent, has a better OPS and everything suggests that the odds favor him being the better player for the next several years.

 

i've said you can't, or more accurately shouldn't, bench a player who has been performing at a high level. there is at least one other person in this thread who agrees with me, so i guess i can throw out a blanket statement about your benching a .893 OPS hitter as being not logical.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If I'm understanding you right, isn't that one of the stats that Fred does? How many baserunners you knock in as a percentage of how many baserunners there were on when you were up.

 

Yes, that is what bukie is asking and this is one of the multitude of stats Fred posts.

and last post I saw had Ronny leading the team in that category

Wouldn't be surprised - isn't he around 4/5 with bases juiced this season? (Maybe that was going into last game, or maybe that includes the K.)

last stat I saw was 0 for his first 11 then 4 for his next 4. that obviously covers ABs from before this season and was before yesterday, but he is now 4-5 this season with a 2B, HR, 11 RBI and 2400 OPS

[forbez18]

 

Cedeno's the better player. He's playing better now and likely to do so going forward. He gives the Cubs the best chance to win. That isn't true with any replacement for Pie or Hill. Those are the 2 best guys for their particular positions as well. You just have either a weird affinity for Theriot or prejudice against Cedeno. I don't know which, but I don't care. It's not little league. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. Cedeno is that guy now and also gives us the best chance long term.

 

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch.

 

My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS).

 

ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why.

 

i end up debating this over lots of threads and posts because people like you continually suggest that i have a weird affinity for theriot or a prejudice against cedeno. i've laid out my points before; cedeno was one of the five worst players in baseball over a full season at age 23, and also has a tendency to make stupid/careless plays on the basepaths and in the field. my opinion is that he won't improve enough over his horrid 2006 numbers to be a better player than theriot. hopefully i'm wrong. but please, stop suggesting that there aren't any logical reasons to support theriot over cedeno, and you won't have to worry about me posting so much in the "START CEDENO BENCH THERIOT" threads any more.

 

Cedeno hit what .245 in over 500 at bats I believe in 2006 and then started 2007 hitting just about .200 with an OBP of .230. They gave him a chance to prove himself and he did not, now he has to work to prove that he can hit major league pitching. When he gets spot starts and come in as a sub he has to continue to prove he is capable. If after 150 at bats he is hitting .320 and Theriot is hitting .280 then yea you make a switch and give him a chance. However, not after 40 at bats when they are both doing well. You can't qualify your statement by saying Cedeno give the Cubs the best chance to win because in the past he has not, and until he proves that he will for a sustained period the statement in wrong.

[brinoch]

I made the point previously that there is no reason to cross the Cedeno/Theriot bridge right now since Soriano is on the DL and DeRosa is playing LF. Rather than a Cedeno vs. Theriot for one spot debate, this becomes a debate about three spots for five players -- Cedeno, DeRosa, Fontenot, Murton and Theriot. Play the best three, and right now, I think DeRosa, Cedeno and Theriot are those three.

 

I'm actually getting tired of the dogmatic, nasty fight over this topic. There's no reason to make a decision on a full time SS until Soriano comes back. Let them both play. In addition, with DeRosa likely to occasionally spell Ramirez at 3B along with Soriano/Fukudome in OF, that opens more time for one of the two. The real debate here shouldn't be about playing Theriot over Cedeno,it should be about playing Fontenot over Cedeno.

[Tracer Bullet]

All you've said in this thread is that you can't bench Theriot b/c he has a high OPS. That's not logical. His replacement, who has more talent, has a better OPS and everything suggests that the odds favor him being the better player for the next several years.

 

i've said you can't, or more accurately shouldn't, bench a player who has been performing at a high level. there is at least one other person in this thread who agrees with me, so i guess i can throw out a blanket statement about your benching a .893 OPS hitter as being not logical.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Tracer Bullet]

I made the point previously that there is no reason to cross the Cedeno/Theriot bridge right now since Soriano is on the DL and DeRosa is playing LF. Rather than a Cedeno vs. Theriot for one spot debate, this becomes a debate about three spots for five players -- Cedeno, DeRosa, Fontenot, Murton and Theriot. Play the best three, and right now, I think DeRosa, Cedeno and Theriot are those three.

 

I'm actually getting tired of the dogmatic, nasty fight over this topic. There's no reason to make a decision on a full time SS until Soriano comes back. Let them both play. In addition, with DeRosa likely to occasionally spell Ramirez at 3B along with Soriano/Fukudome in OF, that opens more time for one of the two. The real debate here shouldn't be about playing Theriot over Cedeno,it should be about playing Fontenot over Cedeno.

 

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

[Jehrico]

Damn, this is a tough call. I don't stop putting Cedeno out there right now, though. Theriot is never going to hit for this kind of power. At least let them play up the middle with DeRosa filling in around in the OF. Jeez, who isn't hot - Fontenot?

 

This team is the balls.

Correct. The power that Cedeno has shown thus far makes him the clear choice. Besides the bomb he hit tonight, he has hit some really deep doubles that Theriot can only dream about doing, and hasn't even come close to doing in twice as many PAs. Eff Theriot's .893 OPS right now

I hope to see you guys carrying on this same argument in August/early September.

 

Doubt it. It would be a miracle if both of them are puting up competing numbers by then. Hell, it'll be a miracle if one of them is still putting up awesome numbers then.

Dude, you're talking to a Cubs fan. Of course they'll both still be producing like that at the end of the year. :pig:

[Jehrico]

yeah let's bench theriot and his .893 OPS.

 

He's got a ways to catch Cedeno's .957.

 

doesn't matter... you don't bench a guy OPS'ing .893.

 

But you bench a guy OPSing .957? Neat.

 

bench players don't get benched, they get returned to the spot they were already occupying.

I'm a little late adding to this conversation, but here's my $0.02...

I agree and disagree. You don't bench a starter OPS'ing .893 just because you have a guy on the bench OPSing higher in fewer at bats (see Dusty starting Todd Hollandsworth his second year with us). You do it because the guy on the bench is younger, better, and has higher potential.