More Murton to SD whispers

[nilodnayr]

i think greene is highly overrated & I hope he doesn't land here. I believe in low strikeout guys & guys w/ high OBP...especially those at the top of the order. Go scan the Red Sox roster & look at their obp stats. They showed the rest how it is done while our lineup full of dave kingman's went down in four straight. It is very evident that the Cub organization is shifting offensive philosophy. fuko is a high obp guy & they covet roberts as a leadoff hitter for the same reason. They want soriano out of the top spot. For the cubs to get back to the playoffs & create any run at all it is a must.

 

 

Few points:

 

1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much.

 

2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order?

 

3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4.

 

Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal.

 

If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th.

 

Soriano

Fukudome

Lee

ARam

Greene

Soto

Pie

DeRosa

 

Thats how I'd do it.

[Mephistopheles]

hilariously for all the obp love. no one mentions he (greene) is a better OBP guy than theriot....and slugs 150-200 higher. you compare greene to SSs nothing else.

[Hosak8]

i think greene is highly overrated & I hope he doesn't land here. I believe in low strikeout guys & guys w/ high OBP...especially those at the top of the order. Go scan the Red Sox roster & look at their obp stats. They showed the rest how it is done while our lineup full of dave kingman's went down in four straight. It is very evident that the Cub organization is shifting offensive philosophy. fuko is a high obp guy & they covet roberts as a leadoff hitter for the same reason. They want soriano out of the top spot. For the cubs to get back to the playoffs & create any run at all it is a must.

 

 

Few points:

 

1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much.

 

2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order?

 

3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4.

 

Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal.

 

If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th.

 

Soriano

Fukudome

Lee

ARam

Greene

Soto

Pie

DeRosa

 

Thats how I'd do it.

 

Not at all sure I'd hit Derosa 8th in that lineup. 6th perhaps, but not 8th.

[cbbryan]

i think greene is highly overrated & I hope he doesn't land here. I believe in low strikeout guys & guys w/ high OBP...especially those at the top of the order. Go scan the Red Sox roster & look at their obp stats. They showed the rest how it is done while our lineup full of dave kingman's went down in four straight. It is very evident that the Cub organization is shifting offensive philosophy. fuko is a high obp guy & they covet roberts as a leadoff hitter for the same reason. They want soriano out of the top spot. For the cubs to get back to the playoffs & create any run at all it is a must.

 

 

Few points:

 

1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much.

 

2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order?

 

3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4.

 

Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal.

 

If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th.

 

Soriano

Fukudome

Lee

ARam

Greene

Soto

Pie

DeRosa

 

Thats how I'd do it.

 

Not at all sure I'd hit Derosa 8th in that lineup. 6th perhaps, but not 8th.

 

 

Agreed. Pie would probably be stuck at 8.

[CubsWin]

hilariously for all the obp love. no one mentions he (greene) is a better OBP guy than theriot....and slugs 150-200 higher. you compare greene to SSs nothing else.

I would much rather have Greene than Theriot, but according to the numbers I can find, Khalil is not the better OBP guy. If anything, they are about the same with maybe a slight edge going to Theriot.

 

Greene's non-Petco OBP last season was .322. Theriot's OBP was .326 last year. Basically, the same. Greene's career OBP away from Petco is slighly better at .335, but then again so is Theriot's at .341. That .341 career OBP is impacted by the freakish couple of months Ryan put up in '06, so let's throw that out and go back a little further to their minor league numbers. Greene didn't spend a lot of time in the minors, but his career minor league OBP is .341 while Theriot's is .352. Basically, they are about the same statistically with the slight edge going to Theriot when Petco is taken out of the equation.

 

That said, Greene's power and defense are such great assests over what Theriot brings, that the comparison isn't even close.

[badnews]

Comments...

 

Greene the last two years has struck out on the road at a rate commensurate with golden boy Brian Roberts in 2007.

 

I don't even remotely liked Xavier Nady. Terrible BB/K ratio, bad K rate overall, not only does he play center field badly, he plays right field badly, in fact he looks almost Willinghamesque anywhere. He had a good half a year last year, after that, pffft.

 

Tim Stauffer... no. "The next Greg Maddux" is now "the next Josh Towers."

 

I like Latos... would've been nice if the Cubs got him instead of Huseby. No chance for Murton though.

 

I'd love for the Cubs to expand the deal for Greene... unlikely because of Hendry's foolishness.

 

It would not surprise me to get back some "blah" guy like Neil Jamison.

 

Wade LeBlanc would be fine given the scenarios likely to unfold. Will Inman would be passable. Just looking over BA's Padres list, I'm wondering why they value Garrison over Inman.

[David]

I hate when K's and BB/K ratio (for hitters) are ever brought up to evaluate major league players (note - not directing this at you badnews, just in general). They have some value in evaluating younger guys in the lower minors and trying to figure out how those guys will adapt at higher levels where pitchers have more pitches and better stuff, but I could care less what kind of outs major league players are making, or how many they make compared to their walks. Seriously, what does it matter?

 

Tell me about what they produce. I could care less that a guy strikes out 200 times a year if he's putting up a .950 OPS.

 

If you're telling me you can get an .800+ OPS out of SS (especially when we presently have a guy who'll be lucky to crack .700, and plays weak defense at the position, to boot), I'll take it. Don't give a damn how he makes his outs.

[David]

You do realize that some of the highest OBP hitters are also among the highest in strikeout totals, right? They're not at all mutually exclusive.

 

As for Greene, his OBP on the road isn't that bad and is mitigated by his SLG ability.

 

 

Greene's OBP is Neifi-esqe, which is never a good thing. The Cubs have enough power guys in the lineup, it would be nice to compliment them with players that actually get on base.

 

The reason we cite his road stats are because his home/road splits are huge and it makes perfect sense considering what type of park his home park is. His road OBP is not Neifi-esque. Over the past 3 years, it's a passable .328. You can live with that when the guy is a SS that plays very good defense and has a SLG of .500.

 

It doesn't matter what "type" of hitter you want to label him or what role you want to give him. He'd be a massive improvement over Ryan Theriot and would result in us scoring more runs and giving up fewer runs. That's, after all, what we want, right?

[wrigley23]

getting on base does matter. It drives me nuts when people say it doesn't. Again, look at the red sox lineup. Those guys take pitches & get on base. They work counts & get into the opponent's bullpen. It forces the other team to throw strikes which creates better hitters as they eventually see better pitches to hit earlier in the count. Putting Khalil Greene's 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio, .250 average & sub .300 OBP onto this team that is already dreadfully full of these guys (including our overpriced leadoff hitter) makes no sense. We were swept out of the playoffs for a reason...because we did not get on base so that our better hitters mattered when they came up. Khalil Greene does have power although he's only shown it for one year & this team already has enough power hitters. What it needs is more speed, more patient hitters & better placed hitters in the lineup. A closer as well as another 1-3 starter is needed but first things first. This team used to be built by putting together a slowpitch softball hitting lineup. That doesn't work in the major leagues anymore.

[Bote McBoteface]

So, just to clear up some confusion on my part Mr. wrigley23, what part of:

 

"He plays in the worst hitting park in the majors and that screws over his numbers. His away numbers are much more impressive."

 

and

 

"We realize he's not the best in the league but his great defense makes up for it, plus he's a pretty large upgrade over Theriot."

 

don't you understand?

[David]

Who on earth has said that getting on base doesn't matter? Seriously, find one person who has said this. I implore you.

 

 

The thing is, you're 100% right in wanting this team to improve it's OBP. OBP is probably the most important basic stat, as it measure's how good a team is at not making outs. The problem is, you're still hanging on to other misguided old-school beliefs at the same time. Strikeouts are neither bad nor good when compared to other outs. Outs are bad, period. It doesn't matter what kind of out it is. Speed is, however, overrated (although not as much these days as it used to be). Again, some of the highest OBP guys in the majors are also going to be among the leaders in strikeouts. Patience and high K totals almost go hand in hand, because patient hitters naturally are going into deeper counts more often. You realize this, right?

 

Some hitters that can hit for more power can make up for a lack of OBP somewhat because, to put it almost too simply, when they hit it, they're making it count by getting the bigger hits (2B's and HRs) more often than other guys do.

 

The real problem with ours and many lineups is when you start lining up completely impotent bats who are good at making contact but don't get on base particularly well (don't take many walks) and can't hit for power.

 

People naturally look to the more visible guys on the team and blame them for this team not scoring enough runs (and yes, I realize the big hitters had a bad three games in the playoffs), but the problem with this team last year was the offensive black holes at C, SS, and CF. The Ryan Theriots and Juan Pierres of the world are the problem.

[Derwood]

So, just to clear up some confusion on my part Mr. wrigley23, what part of:

 

"He plays in the worst hitting park in the majors and that screws over his numbers. His away numbers are much more impressive."

 

and

 

"We realize he's not the best in the league but his great defense makes up for it, plus he's a pretty large upgrade over Theriot."

 

don't you understand?

 

all of it

 

he also completely ignored my post that showed his precious Red Sox strikeout totals

[David]

So, just to clear up some confusion on my part Mr. wrigley23, what part of:

 

"He plays in the worst hitting park in the majors and that screws over his numbers. His away numbers are much more impressive."

 

and

 

"We realize he's not the best in the league but his great defense makes up for it, plus he's a pretty large upgrade over Theriot."

 

don't you understand?

 

Or how about the fact that somehow he's projecting an indifference toward OBP on this, of all boards. It's like I'm in bizarro world.

[David]

Wrigley23,

 

What is a better option that might be available that would provide an upgrade for us at SS? I'd be glad to have the type of guy (high OBP, mainly) you're looking for there if you can think of a viable option.

[RammyFanny]

getting on base does matter.

Tell me who said it doesn't matter? You're talking to NSBB here, you know the OBP posterboys. We're saying that if he has an abnormally high slugging % to compliment an average to sub average OBP (road splits), it will negate it. Although he'll get on fewer times (probably a .320-.330 OBP), the times he does get on will alot of very meaningful doubles/homers.

It drives me nuts when people say it doesn't.

No one said it isn't important. We're saying in certain instances it can be made up for (superb defense and very high slugging), and Khalil can make up for it.

Again, look at the red sox lineup. Those guys take pitches & get on base. They work counts & get into the opponent's bullpen. It forces the other team to throw strikes which creates better hitters as they eventually see better pitches to hit earlier in the count.

Agreed.

Putting Khalil Greene's 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio, .250 average & sub .300 OBP onto this team that is already dreadfully full of these guys (including our overpriced leadoff hitter) makes no sense.

Have you read anything in this thread? Honestly? I'm not about to post his splits away from Petco one more time. He's a damn good hitter when he doesn't play in the worst flyball park in the MLB, and it makes sense considering he is an extreme flyball hitter.

 

Now you're going to reply by saying, "OBP shouldn't change from park to park", and i'm going to reply that when those flyballs actually drop for double and homeruns in the other parks, you're OBP is going to become ALOT higher. Just thought i'd get that out of the way. Probably .30-.40 points higher. We're not saying he's going to walk a ton, but if he can get his OBP to mediocre (which by all means the evidence points to he can), then his slugging pushes his offensive value through the roof for the position he plays. And all of this is not taking into account his amazing defense.

We were swept out of the playoffs for a reason...because we did not get on base so that our better hitters mattered when they came up.

That's nice and all, but I don't think you can pinpoint our exact problems out of a 3 game sample size.

Khalil Greene does have power although he's only shown it for one year & this team already has enough power hitters.

Yes, despite the fact that we were 21st out of 30 teams in homers...

 

Do you honestly not remember those HR droughts we had last year that were aboslutely pathetic? Didn't we go like 10-12 games or something without hitting a HR? We're in the middle of the pack in slugging, meaning we somewhat made up for it with doubles, but it still something that should be addressed.

What it needs is more speed, more patient hitters & better placed hitters in the lineup.

Speed for what? We're already going to be an above average defensive team and stolen bases have been proven to hurt you more than they help. I don't remember the exact numbers, but even with Roberts insanely high SB%, it only resulted in the Orioles scoring like 6 or 7 more runs throughout the course of a season or something like that.

 

I'm not fully opposed to the SB though, it helps to be able to use it in specific situations. What we seem to disagree on is the fact that you think it's a need and I think it's a luxury.

[CubColtPacer]

getting on base does matter. It drives me nuts when people say it doesn't. Again, look at the red sox lineup. Those guys take pitches & get on base. They work counts & get into the opponent's bullpen. It forces the other team to throw strikes which creates better hitters as they eventually see better pitches to hit earlier in the count. Putting Khalil Greene's 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio, .250 average & sub .300 OBP onto this team that is already dreadfully full of these guys (including our overpriced leadoff hitter) makes no sense. We were swept out of the playoffs for a reason...because we did not get on base so that our better hitters mattered when they came up. Khalil Greene does have power although he's only shown it for one year & this team already has enough power hitters. What it needs is more speed, more patient hitters & better placed hitters in the lineup. A closer as well as another 1-3 starter is needed but first things first. This team used to be built by putting together a slowpitch softball hitting lineup. That doesn't work in the major leagues anymore.

 

As others have said, we would all love to find a great OBP shortstop. If you can find a great OBP shortstop that also plays great defense that the Cubs could trade for, let us know.

 

Our problems during the playoffs were 1) no power, and 2) couldn't hit for average. The Cubs walked at a very high rate in the playoffs. At the same time, the playoffs are 3 games, so let's look at what they did over 162 games.

 

During the season, the Cubs were average at OBP, and average at power. They could use quite a bit of improvement at either one. Most of their offseason moves to date (including who they've promised the starting jobs to from within) have increased the OBP and the patience of the team. Increasing the power of the team still would be very helpful.

 

The Cubs are not strikeout kings at all. They were actually above average in avoiding strikeouts last year, they had the 6th fewest in the NL out of 16 teams.

 

One of the things you have mentioned is the Cubs need to see more pitches and get into a teams bullpen quicker. I would agree with that. The thing is, Khalil Greene sees a lot more pitches than Ryan Theriot. Greene has seen 3.75 pitches or more per plate appearance 4 out of the last 5 years. Theriot only averages 3.57 pitches per plate appearance for his short career. That means adding Greene will actually mean that the Cubs actually improve on getting into the bullpen quicker.

[pitchcs]

getting on base does matter. It drives me nuts when people say it doesn't. Again, look at the red sox lineup. Those guys take pitches & get on base. They work counts & get into the opponent's bullpen. It forces the other team to throw strikes which creates better hitters as they eventually see better pitches to hit earlier in the count. Putting Khalil Greene's 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio, .250 average & sub .300 OBP onto this team that is already dreadfully full of these guys (including our overpriced leadoff hitter) makes no sense. We were swept out of the playoffs for a reason...because we did not get on base so that our better hitters mattered when they came up. Khalil Greene does have power although he's only shown it for one year & this team already has enough power hitters. What it needs is more speed, more patient hitters & better placed hitters in the lineup. A closer as well as another 1-3 starter is needed but first things first. This team used to be built by putting together a slowpitch softball hitting lineup. That doesn't work in the major leagues anymore.

 

I think this point is highly misleading. Greene was only 27 years old last year and had 27 HR in 600+ AB's. His previous high was only 15, but in only 400+ AB's. He's just now entering his prime and power is known as a developing trait. And even so, 20-30 HR's for a SS is great.

 

And just one other fact:

 

Career Home HR's: 27

Career Road HR's: 47

[shnsajax]

i think greene is highly overrated & I hope he doesn't land here. I believe in low strikeout guys & guys w/ high OBP...especially those at the top of the order. Go scan the Red Sox roster & look at their obp stats. They showed the rest how it is done while our lineup full of dave kingman's went down in four straight. It is very evident that the Cub organization is shifting offensive philosophy. fuko is a high obp guy & they covet roberts as a leadoff hitter for the same reason. They want soriano out of the top spot. For the cubs to get back to the playoffs & create any run at all it is a must.

 

 

Few points:

 

1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much.

 

2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order?

 

3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4.

 

Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal.

 

If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th.

 

Soriano

Fukudome

Lee

ARam

Greene

Soto

Pie

DeRosa

 

Thats how I'd do it.

 

I would still prefer

 

Derosa

Fuku

Lee

Aram

Soriano

Soto

Greene

Pie

[pitchcs]

Depending how Pie looks, I'm still in favor of throwing him in the #2 hole with some protection around him.

[Rob]

getting on base does matter. It drives me nuts when people say it doesn't. Again, look at the red sox lineup. Those guys take pitches & get on base. They work counts & get into the opponent's bullpen. It forces the other team to throw strikes which creates better hitters as they eventually see better pitches to hit earlier in the count. Putting Khalil Greene's 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio, .250 average & sub .300 OBP onto this team that is already dreadfully full of these guys (including our overpriced leadoff hitter) makes no sense.

 

Striking out is guaranteed to take at least 3 pitches, which forces teams to go to their bullpens faster than if guys like Ryan Theriot run up there and ground out on the first pitch constantly. Couple that with the fact that Greene is likely to have a slightly higher OBP after getting out of PETCO, and a much higher slugging percentage, all while showing off some actual defensive prowess (while Theriot has none at all)... it's not even a question.

[nilodnayr]

i think greene is highly overrated & I hope he doesn't land here. I believe in low strikeout guys & guys w/ high OBP...especially those at the top of the order. Go scan the Red Sox roster & look at their obp stats. They showed the rest how it is done while our lineup full of dave kingman's went down in four straight. It is very evident that the Cub organization is shifting offensive philosophy. fuko is a high obp guy & they covet roberts as a leadoff hitter for the same reason. They want soriano out of the top spot. For the cubs to get back to the playoffs & create any run at all it is a must.

 

 

Few points:

 

1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much.

 

2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order?

 

3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4.

 

Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal.

 

If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th.

 

Soriano

Fukudome

Lee

ARam

Greene

Soto

Pie

DeRosa

 

Thats how I'd do it.

 

I would still prefer

 

Derosa

Fuku

Lee

Aram

Soriano

Soto

Greene

Pie

 

I didn't put Pie 8th because I'd rather him not hit in front of the pitcher. I'd like to give him some protection so pitchers won't be able to just throw him junk. I'd be fine flipping DeRo and Soto.

 

Even if DeRosa hits as well as he did last year, hes still not anywhere near one of our better hitters. Our best hitters should be getting the most at bats, hence our best hitters should be at the top of the order.

[cubbyvirus00]

cool another thread thats going to last 100 pages without very substantial trade talk........

[Vanilla Ice]

cool another thread thats going to last 100 pages without very substantial trade talk........

 

hater.

[shnsajax]

 

I didn't put Pie 8th because I'd rather him not hit in front of the pitcher. I'd like to give him some protection so pitchers won't be able to just throw him junk. I'd be fine flipping DeRo and Soto.

 

Even if DeRosa hits as well as he did last year, hes still not anywhere near one of our better hitters. Our best hitters should be getting the most at bats, hence our best hitters should be at the top of the order.

 

I agree about protecting Pie, but he has to earn in ST. Its more important to get as many runners on base for Lee, Ramirez, and whoever the #5 is than it is to protect Pie. Bottom line is right now he is not one of our better hitters. He could become one, but right now he isn't. Derosa right now has a 3 year split of .288/.359 which is pretty much identical to what he put up last year outside of a higher OBP last season. Our top two hitters in the lineup need to create as many run scoring chances as possible for our "best hitters" Lee and Ramirez. Derosa, Murton, and Fukudome give us that.

[Sammy Sofa]

cool another thread thats going to last 100 pages without very substantial trade talk........

 

Dear Lord, who cares how long a thread is? Especially when they end up inflated due to people pointlessly commenting on how long the thread is?

 

I feel bad for all the people who bravely come to these threads, even if multiple thread pages apparently crashes their computer or slashes their tires or gives them cancer.

Edited January 26, 2008 by Sammy Sofa