MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[Burtonbell]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So basically, because they are right next to each other in your fantasy league you came up with this conclusion? Seriously?

 

You would rather have Theriot at SS than Greene right now?

[mul21]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

 

Oh my god you seriously could not try harder and be any more wrong. It can be very easily shown statistically that Greene is an extreme fly ball hitter. Petco is huge and is terrible for flyball hitters because it GREATLY reduces their offensive productivity. In fact, I think somebody did a graph of Greene's deep flyball outs at Petco vs. playing at Wrigley and he would have had something like 10-12 more HRs JUST IN HOME GAMES. It has everything to do with park factors and nothing to do with your ridiculous viewpoints on how "watching the game" makes your opinion right. It's just not.

[David]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

 

Very nice. Using my own argument against me. haha....

 

But seriously, I think, while those others could also be possible explanations, given the fact that PetCo is clearly the equivalent of a Coors Field for pitching, and the fact that Greene is such an extreme fly-ball hitter, as well as the stats that support the possibility (which, as you said, might be explained by something else), that there's a good possibility that you could find a diamond in the rough with Greene and that there's a good chance that his numbers would improve significantly if he got out of there.

 

Wow, that's probably the longest sentence I've ever written. I'm not sure that it's a run-on, though.

[inari]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

That might work if SB with worth .25, or HR were worth 15. Otherwise it's a terrible way to compare them. Greene is MUCH better. Theriot isn't below average, he's terrible. He can steal 100 bases and that won't change.

[DenverCubs]

 

So if player A has 20 HRs and player B has 40 SB but gets CS 120 times, they are as valuable in that league?

 

Does getting CS give you negative points. Serious question. I mean, interceptions or fumbles do in football. They really should.

[third eye]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

 

OR, you can actually look at a log of the deep fly ball outs he made at Petco and SEE that, based on dimensions alone, those would have been HRs at Wrigley. This is not about making guesses about a player's mental aptitude in different situations. This argument is about actually being able to count the number of deep flyouts an extreme flyball hitter made that would have been HRs in other parks.

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So if player A has 20 HRs and player B has 40 SB but gets CS 120 times, they are as valuable in that league?

 

No Caught Stealing is also worth -2.

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So basically, because they are right next to each other in your fantasy league you came up with this conclusion? Seriously?

 

You would rather have Theriot at SS than Greene right now?

 

The only conclusion that I came across when looking at the fantasy baseball numbers is that Greene and Theriot are very comparable offensively when it comes to their ranking among the other shortstops. And no I wouldnt rather have Theriot than Greene. I think Greene is the better player and plays better defense. But It isnt a huge upgrade or a team need.

Edited February 13, 2008 by DeuceBaseman

[inari]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So basically, because they are right next to each other in your fantasy league you came up with this conclusion? Seriously?

 

You would rather have Theriot at SS than Greene right now?

 

The only conclusion that I came across when looking at the fantasy baseball numbers is that Greene and Theriot are very comparable offensively when it comes to their ranking among the other shortstops.

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

[mul21]

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

Holy arbitrary, Batman!!!

[RynoRules]

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

Ah, the marketplace of ideas....

[sethuel1]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So basically, because they are right next to each other in your fantasy league you came up with this conclusion? Seriously?

 

You would rather have Theriot at SS than Greene right now?

 

The only conclusion that I came across when looking at the fantasy baseball numbers is that Greene and Theriot are very comparable offensively when it comes to their ranking among the other shortstops.

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

But a situation where HR are worth 4 and SB are worth 2 is perfectly translatable to the actual game of baseball!

[Burtonbell]

Soriano LF

Roberts 2B

Lee 1B

Fukudome RF

Aram 3B

Soto C

Cedeno SS

Pie CF

 

I can see Lou using this lineup. I hope he doesn't get "Gritty" on us and use

Roberts

Theriot

Lee

Fukudome

Aram

Soriano

Soto

Pie

[inari]

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

Ah, the marketplace of ideas....

 

If you want to get into a debate about whether John Mabry is better than Albert Pujols, you're welcome to. You're still going to get laughed at for arguing something that's so obviously wrong.

[DenverCubs]

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

Ah, the marketplace of ideas....

 

If you want to get into a debate about whether John Mabry is better than Albert Pujols, you're welcome to. You're still going to get laughed at for arguing something that's so obviously wrong.

You're forgetting that John Mabry is known to buy at least 2 drinks a night for his teammates when they go out after home wins, which in my league is worth 59 points a month.

[DeuceBaseman]

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

[RynoRules]

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

Ah, the marketplace of ideas....

 

If you want to get into a debate about whether John Mabry is better than Albert Pujols, you're welcome to. You're still going to get laughed at for arguing something that's so obviously wrong.

 

Chill out - I agree with the substance of your post, I just found the visceral door-shutting to be ironic.

[Burtonbell]

 

Well your conclusion is just wrong and there's absolutely no debate about it.

 

Ah, the marketplace of ideas....

 

If you want to get into a debate about whether John Mabry is better than Albert Pujols, you're welcome to. You're still going to get laughed at for arguing something that's so obviously wrong.

You're forgetting that John Mabry is known to buy at least 2 drinks a night for his teammates when they go out after home wins, which in my league is worth 59 points a month.

 

I think we are in the same league, the "I played and or coached; so there!" league?

[Burtonbell]

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

 

 

by this reasoning, Peralta is close to Theriot? What?

[fromthestretch]

Khalil Greene, in 1126 plate appearances away from Petco, is a .335/.515 hitter. I was being conservative and even reduced that to .330/.485. He would be a significant upgrade over Theriot.

 

Regardless, people are putting waaaaaayyyy too much emphasis on the leadoff spot.

[inari]

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

 

Being the 14th best shortstop in the league is much better than being the 25th-30th best shortstop in the league.

[DeuceBaseman]

Theriot would be top 20.

[C.C.]

Theriot would be top 20.

 

With any luck number 20.

[fromthestretch]

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

 

Carlos Guillen is no longer a SS.

[DeuceBaseman]

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

 

Carlos Guillen is no longer a SS.

 

I'd still put him at SS over Greene. Just like I'd put DeRosa at SS over Greene.